Thursday, March 13, 2008

Jesus' ultimate sacrifice

I find torture to be a horrible abomination. The idea of other people even being capable of deliberately hurting fellow human beings is mind boggling to me. And upon further reflection, maybe that is part of the problem. Maybe they no longer or never thought of them AS human beings.

I find it difficult just fishing a sliver out of my child's finger, and the idea of deliberately hurting another is utterly repugnant to me. Torture is something that has given me nightmares since I was a little kid when I first watched Jesus of Nazareth as a tv movie. I can only imagine the psychological damage inflicted on young people by Mel Gibson's S&M piece the Passion of the Christ. And anyone with that movie in their favorites has issues in my book.

Unfortunately for me, my mind is drawn to torture, it captures images and bits and pieces of information on it and I find it nearly impossible to purge them from my mind. When I am least expecting them, memories of these little bits and pieces that I have picked up over the years float to the surface and my mind will turn them over and over. Because I know this about myself, I tend to avoid adding anything new to the pot. I know enough about it to know that I really don't need fresh pieces to .... well.... torture myself with... if you will. So this post for me, walks a pretty fine line.

It's not just about torture, though that is, of course, part of it. It is the idea of God's sacrifice of his son Jesus and specifically the nature of that sacrifice that I've been thinking about lately.

It is a subject that has been dealt with on other websites and was even brought up in a recent discussion with Jason & Trevor here on my blog. It is also one that I have not really addressed fully as an atheist.

The first place that really got me thinking about the details of God's sacrifice was Russel's Teapot an online cartoon.



Ah yes God's amazing sacrifice of his beloved son via crucifixion (a miserable death indeed, I don't think anyone would argue that). Poor git was beaten with a whip, smacked around, spit on, had a crown of thorns smashed onto his head, forced into heavy labor after all of this, and then nailed up on a cross where he then died.

But here's the real kicker... when did he die? Oh yes.. later that day!!!! So... his misery didn't last for several days, certainly not years, but rather hours.



One of the things that has recently started to bother me is the constant harping that crucifixion is the most excruciating way to die. That somehow no one else in all of history died a more painful death then the son of God.



Which.... being the type of person who can remember details of torture included in movies years after watching them, I'd have to say, "Nup! Not the worst way to go." In fact a quick google search produced this website. While I've been working on this post, the website has been open in a tab for two days now. 55 Hours to Live...It's a Slow Death. It deals with the Spanish Inquisition and details the fact that some of the heretics were kept in prison for decades and tortured the entire time by religious people doing it to save their immortal soul.



It would be nice to think that stuff like that only happened in our distant past and that we've evolved beyond that sort of behavior. Unfortunately there are organizations like Amnesty International needed even today to deal with egregious human rights violations...crimes against humanity.



This "ultimate" sacrifice was done to save sinners from a hell that GOD created knowing full well to the last soul how many people would end up spending eternity frying in it's depths.

The hell meant to punish us for a sin that God KNEW was going to happen, and yet still he planted the tree, still allowed the snake to talk to Eve. In fact God knew there was going to be a problem back when he created Lucifer in the first place. And yet, he still proceeded. WHY?????

Now according to some traditions Jesus actually descended into hell for 3 days and experienced the utter torment awaiting the unrepentant there following final judgment (Or however the hell it is supposed to play out in "the end"). Three days? Three whole days???? Ohhhhhhhhhh big deal. What about those who will be condemned to burn for an eternity???

And Jesus has been sitting up in paradise for 1970 odd years now. So what exactly was the sacrifice again????



Special thanks to Normal Bob Smith for the use of his fabulous cartoons from his series "Satan's Salvation".

42 comments:

Reg Golb said...

He was innocent!

Sean the Blogonaut F.C.D. said...

Possibly the best post you have ever written Fiery.

Oh and I am reading Deconstrucing Jesus at the moment, very interesting.

Poodles said...

Cause Reg was there. So he knows...

Reg Golb said...

Poodles,
if you are going to assume (for this story at least) that the Bible was correct when it said he was tortured, then you must also assume that he was without sin.

I am quite sure you never let me get away with cherry picking.

Fiery said...

Jesus was not innocent.

He was convicted of treason for being the King of the Jews. He was hailed as such on his triumphal return to Jerusalem when the multitudes were "Hosannahing" and waving Palm Branches at him, leading him through the streets on a colt or ass (they couldn't tell which).

Jesus certainly made no move to protest or stop them from treating him like royalty and he was crucified for it. Tried, convicted, sentenced and killed for what he did.

How is that innocent again?

Reg Golb said...

The people were waving palm because even they were acknowledging his Kingship, it just happened to be different than they expected.

Tried, yes.
Convicted, well you be the judge.
Luke 23:4 Then said Pilate to the chief priests and to the people, I find no fault in this man.

Additionally, he wrote the LAW, and since this discussion is under the supposition that the Bible is true, then indeed he didn't break it because he is the King of the Jews.

Fiery said...

Exactly, the people were acknowledging his kingship and Rome saw Jesus as a threat. Jesus was tried and convicted under Roman Law by Roman soldiers under the order of a Roman governor.

Just becaust Pilate washed his hands and claimed no responsibility doesn't mean he didn't sign the death warrant.

Reg Golb said...

Pilate turned him over to the Jews to avoid civil unrest. What about Pilate saying "I find NO fault in him"?

Fiery said...

then what was with all the mockery of being "king of the jews" with the purple and the crown and the sign over his body. what was the trial for in the first place?

Pilate was a superstitious roman who was warned not to get involved, shocking that he turned responsibility over to someone else. Still died though didn't he?

Point is, Jesus "sacrifice" wasn't that much of a sacrifice.

Reg Golb said...

This might be a bit of a hard pill to swallow but the Jews believed that the Messiah, which they all expected based of the writings of Daniel, was going to free them from the Roman occupation. When they realized that he was not an Earthly king they were not happy.

Jesus claimed to be God, he turned over the tables in the temple, made some enemies.
Yes, he did die.
I don't think you have made a point at all. Jesus is God, perfect, without sin.
Let me ask you a hypothetical.
Your son or daughter is going to have to go to the electric chair. Would you take the punishment for them? Yes or no, that is the situation.
That is the Biblical story, if you don't believe it that is your choice.

Fiery said...

An interesting question Reg, but you forgot the rest of it. The person who dies will only be dead for 3 days and then will come back to life, fully restored and fly up to heaven to live in paradise.

Reg Golb said...

Ok, lets include that.

Your son or daughter is going to have to go to the electric chair. Would you suffer what Jesus did for them knowing you would be alive again in 3 days? Yes or no, that is the situation.

Based on the Bible, Jesus is God. He didn't have to suffer anything. He could have stopped the whole thing anytime if he wanted to.

Sean the Blogonaut F.C.D. said...

Which is why he cries out to god in the end asking himself why he has been abandoned by himself.

Sean the Blogonaut F.C.D. said...

No assuming that the bible is true, for the sake of argument, Jesus existed and was god incarnate

How is suffering for 3 days a sacrifice when you are immortal?

A far better sacrifice would be Jesus in misery for eternity. But then these stories were created for simple folk weren't they.

Protium said...

Where is the empirical evidence that Jesy Chresy actually existed?

There's no historical data recorded that mentions him and it seems a lot of other delusions before JFC were all based on an uncannily similar allegory...

Horus- Egypt 3000BCE
Born of a virgin on Dec 25
12 deciples
performed miracles *snerk*
known as "the lamb of god" etc...
Crucified... dead 3 days... resurrected.

Attis - Greece 1200BCE
Born of a virgin on Dec 25
12 deciples
performed miracles *snerk*
known as "the lamb of god" etc...
Crucified... dead 3 days... resurrected.

Krishna - India 900BCE
Born of a virgin on Dec 25
12 deciples
performed miracles *snerk*
known as "the lamb of god" etc...
Crucified... dead 3 days... resurrected.

Dionysus - Greece 500BCE
Born of a virgin on Dec 25
12 deciples
performed miracles *snerk*
known as "the lamb of god" etc...
Crucified... dead 3 days... resurrected.

Mithra - Persia 1200BCE
Born of a virgin on Dec 25
12 deciples
performed miracles *snerk*
known as "the lamb of god" etc...
Crucified... dead 3 days... resurrected.

Can anyone see a pattern here... Astrological perhaps... winter solstice... stupid deluded goat herders... Get fucking original and use your brain Glob.

All your stupid deluded religions are myths based on anthropomorphised astrological allegories... (hey! AAA rating)

How can someone that is imaginary be fucking tortured?

Sean the Blogonaut F.C.D. said...

Protium,

the original intent of the post was I think to illustrate that if it were true - it is no sacrifice.

Oh and if Reg comes back with the time traveling Satan in response to the previous "mythical saviors" you'll have to pick me up off the floor.

Protium said...

SEAN: I know I'm just very grumpy today.

Shall we take bets on the answer?

Sean the Blogonaut F.C.D. said...

Bad day with the CUNTS again?

Johnny said...

I don't think you have made a point at all. Jesus is God, perfect, without sin.

Absolute rubbish, the whole point of god creating a son to "sacrifice" for our sins was to say that jebus was a man like us and NO man is without sin!

Still it's all a load of hokem anyway! Jebus was as innocent as the tooth fairy is guilty of collecting kiddies teeth!!

Reg Golb said...

Who believes in your list protium?

Johnny, if you were smart, and wanted to argue the Bible intelligently, you would not make untrue statements about it.

Fiery said...

I still find myself intrigued by Reg's question...
Your son or daughter is going to have to go to the electric chair. Would you suffer what Jesus did for them knowing you would be alive again in 3 days? Yes or no, that is the situation.

Have a few questions about it.
1- Why is my son/daughter going to fry in the electric chair? Were they rightfully convicted of a crime that the courts deemed worthy of the death sentence?

2- If they are indeed guilty of a dreadful crime, how long will the actual frying last? An eternity or the usual length of time that 2000volts takes to kill somebody?

Fiery said...

Sean- thrills me to pieces that you liked the post and totally got where I was going with it.

the original intent of the post was I think to illustrate that if it were true - it is no sacrifice.

:) Thanks!


Protium- so sorry to hear you had a crap day. BOOOO!!!!! hope the rest of your weekend is much better!!!!!

Johnny- Awwwww!!!!! :D :D :D You took time to post on my blog!!!! :D :D :D :D!!!! WOOHOO!!! Oh man, made my whole morning to see your name pop up on my blog. *HUGS*

Fiery said...

Reg-
At the time those gods on Protium's list ruled they were believed in by the majority of the people in their lands. But as with all gods, their reigns end, their power fades and they are forgotten.

Johnny said...

Johnny, if you were smart, and wanted to argue the Bible intelligently, you would not make untrue statements about it.

Bwahahahahaha you fucking spastic glob...argue the Bible intelligently=oxymoron

Studying the bible is like studying the lord of the rings or learning klingon!!

Poodles said...

God a'Tha!

No that isn't Klingon.

Fiery said...

God a'Tha!

It's not Vulcan either.
*snerk*

Sean the Blogonaut F.C.D. said...

Reg,

What was the untrue statement?

As to who believes in those gods that Protium mentioned. What the hell does belief have to do with it.

Protium is outlining the historical trend/pattern in saviour kings/gods/ avatars to illustrate that yours is just one of the last in that progression. Indeed Christ would appear to be an amalgamation of several mythic traditions.

Belief in Jesus as the son of god and Saviour of mankind, does not make him so. All it means is that people believe.

Protium said...

Blog Ger: I'm sorry you don't believe in my list GBoy. I was hoping to convince you to worship the Sun 'cause that's where your story is stolen from. Pagan astrologer you :)

I've been reading the telephone directory and I'm having trouble believing in it. Can you give me some tips?

Sean: We've just had to do an urgent job for Potters House and they caused such a song & dance (pun intended) they were laughable... and the speaker they'd bought had nothing wrong with it... Cults Using New Technology. THEN it was the local Islamic School dropping off a portable PA for repair and saying "We pick it up Saturday"... NO that's tomorrow it won't be ready... "OK We pick it up Saturday"...*head meet wall* not just once but 5 times... Does the Quran say "Picketh up yee busted arse crap on Saturday"

Are you going to review "Deconstrucing Jesus" or have we already :)

Thump Thump Eyes said...

"Reg-
At the time those gods on Protium's list ruled they were believed in by the majority of the people in their lands. But as with all gods, their reigns end, their power fades and they are forgotten"

Never totally forgotton! Reg I know you see the babble as truth, but really pal you gotta get a handle on the concept of allegory.

Some salient points of interest from the previous gods allegories were always kept and absorbed by the next heads of the main power structure and woven into new stories/allegories.

They knew they needed to facillitate their introductory indoctrination of the sheeple to snare their faith and devotion. Needed to give them new rules to live by and made sure to be heavy on the fear of retribution to keep them believing. They cleverly adjusted the old stories to suit their new goals...and reintroduced them to the sheeple, and tortured and killed those who didnt conform, easy.

Simple eh, go for it Reg, look into it, do some serious research on the old gods, the old myths and dont forget the old symbols...and come back and tell us how embarrassed you are to realise its all just a series of well designed allegories to control your behaviour and scare you into keeping the faith. Allegories, I might remind you, written an awful long time ago. Made up and written by humans, stories of humans and how they should behave in many situations, again...written by humans to control other humans!

So, the story of jeebus appeals to you, he's your hero. You were probably cleverly and cruelly indoctrinated as a child so you base your thoughts and actions upon the old allegories, just as they were intended. Only thing is you were also shown by your indoctrination that your priest/preacher can cherry pick the ones he decides are suitable, leaving out the ones that he doesnt like, doing his own editing of gods word. Just as many have done over the centuries, edited to their own desires.

Your desire is to be seen as a man like jeebus, good and kind, a model man, something to really aim for. Its certainly not easy to live up to those standards, but I imagine you strive towards that goal. I imagine you are not perfect. I imagine you have imperfections which probably annoy you. I imagine you wonder why you cant be that perfect jeebus kind of man, given all that striving, but your cloak of faith, draped over you since childhood continues to blind you and demands that you unquestioningly continue to strive towards the unattainable goal.

Unattainable goals create frustrations which lead to irrational thinking...irrational thinking leads to irrational deeds. Irrational deeds that wouldnt have come about without the unattainable goals set by the fanciful stories of all the religious books! Irrational deeds are committed to keep the faith alive, torture, death and mayhem on a grand scale across the ages designed and constructed by humans to control humans.

Richard said...

I'm kind of familiar with the notion of a "Whipping Boy". So, like, God, who makes everything Good and Bad happen in strange and mysterious ways, somehow sets up this scenario. He creates His own Son, who is ALSO himself. He then feeds his Son/Self to the human morons He created, and thinks,

"Oh! I know, lets torture You/Me and die, and call that a procedure that forgives these morons for all their sins, and then I/we can come to life again, and it's all done.

"We can pretend I don't run everything, so their sins will be all their fault while leaving the morons still thinking I do and I don't run everything. That way I/we can make them be Good and Praise Us because we are so petty We need morons so we can be proud of ourselves and know that the Universe that we made is just right... not too hot and not too cold, you know like the Little Bear's porridge that Goldilocks liked.

"I know... Ha ha ha ha ha ha... I'll sneak my invisible dick into a virgin human cunt to make her pregnant with You/Me, cause I forgot to make Mrs. God, and figure after 6000 years it's time I had a good fuck, by which I can really screw with those morons' heads. Then they can double their adoration because now they will have to love both You and Me
"

Hey the Jews have it easy. They just bang their heads against the Wailing Wall (first two images), or use wooden boards instead.

Richard said...

I couldn't find a Google image of the religious people who bang their heads with boards... I thought they were Jewish, but I never forgot the documentary that showed them doing it.

If God is real there are millions of examples of God's Perfect Love to draw from!

Was that abhorrent?

Good.

I'm in a bad mood, having recently seen news showing dead Canadian soldiers from Afghanistan being given the evil irony of a Christian burial by a bunch of F'ing priests and religious asspits.

Yup, that really helps us all. F'in priests' mumbo jumbo that is supposed to give the soldiers' 20-something year old souls up to 'God'. All thanks to the soldiers' righteous efforts at driving over an IED laid by a fundy of another religion.

2500 years after Aristotle, 300+ yrs after the Founding Fathers, and 25 years after Ayn Rand, and people might as well still believe that a drink of stump water at midnight under a full moon will prevent pregnancy.

Murderous sacks of shinola.

Fiery said...

Sorry to hear about the soldiers and the fundies. :(

Mama Ewok used to say moron's didn't know "shit from Shinolah" and I never knew what the hell she was talking about.

Thank you for that little bit of trivia Richard!!! :)

Richard said...

"You don't know shit from shinola"

LOL

I learned the term from the Editors' column in one of Canada's national newspapers. They were referring to the clamoring "vaudeville shows" of environmental zealots like Al Gore and 'our' David Suzuki.

I suggested my kids use shinola here and there for fun, and they had a heyday with it. And, they revealed how well they understood the shit word. A few samples:

"Don't gimme that shinola."
"That's a lot of bull shinola."
"Holy Shinoly"
"Same shinola, different pile."
"Come on Dad, get your shinola together!"

Non-stop giggling :-D

Reg Golb said...

Johnny "god creating a son". That is wrong. The Bible never says he created his son. He was begotton.

Reg Golb said...

Protium. Everyone of those are gone.

The Christ of the Bible was almost possitively not born Dec. 25. That is simply when we celebrate.
And by the way, Jesus was a Jew. That goes back a good way longer than 2000 years.

Reg Golb said...

Fiery, I am too tired to find the third question. Can you point me too it?

Thump Thump Eyes said...

Same old shinola from Reg I see...

Of course seriously now, Dec 25th, put forth as the date of xmyth is based on the winter solstice in the northern hemisphere.... and I might add that the pagan rites for the winter solstice were allegorised to incorporate 'resurrection' because it appeared that the sun disappeared for three days and then came up again..or...it was resurrected....!

Wikipedia...
"Solstices occur twice a year, when the tilt of the Earth's axis is oriented directly towards or away from the Sun, causing the Sun to appear to reach its northernmost and southernmost extremes. The name is derived from the Latin sol (sun) and sistere (to stand still), because at the solstices, the Sun stands still in declination; that is, its apparent movement north or south comes to a standstill.

The term solstice can also be used in a wider sense, as the date (day) that such a passage happens. The solstices, together with the equinoxes, are connected with the seasons. In some languages they are considered to start or separate the seasons; in others they are considered to be centre points (in English, in the Northern hemisphere, for example, the period around the June solstice is known as midsummer, and Midsummer's Day is 24 June, about three days after the solstice itself). Similarly 25 December is the start of the Christmas celebration, which was a Pagan festival in pre-Christian times, and is the day the sun begins to return back to the northern hemisphere.

You havent been doing your research reg! Look into where the myth of the three kings came from bwaaahahahaha

Thump Thump Eyes said...

More shinola for reg the student of life...all the myths are here...get your myths here...

http://www.religioustolerance.org/winter_solstice.htm

CHRISTIANITY: Any record of the date of birth of Yeshua of Nazareth (later known as Jesus Christ) has been lost. There is sufficient evidence in the Gospels to indicate that Yeshua was born in the fall, but this seems to have been unknown to early Christians. By the beginning of the 4th century CE, there was intense interest in choosing a day to celebrate Yeshua's birthday. The western church leaders selected DEC-25 because this was already the date recognized throughout the Roman Empire as the birthday of various Pagan gods. 1,2 Since there was no central Christian authority at the time, it took centuries before the tradition was universally accepted: Eastern churches began to celebrate Christmas after 375 CE.
The church in Jerusalem started in the 7th century.
Ireland started in the 5th century
Austria, England and Switzerland in the 8th
Slavic lands in the 9th and 10th centuries. 3

Many symbols and practices associated with Christmas are of Pagan origin: holly, ivy, mistletoe, yule log, the giving of gifts, decorated evergreen tree, magical reindeer, etc. Polydor Virgil, an early British Christian, said "Dancing, masques, mummeries, stageplays, and other such Christmas disorders now in use with Christians, were derived from these Roman Saturnalian and Bacchanalian festivals; which should cause all pious Christians eternally to abominate them." In Massachusetts, Puritans unsuccessfully tried to ban Christmas entirely during the 17th century, because of its heathenism. The English Parliament abolished Christmas in 1647. Some contemporary Christian faith groups do not celebrate Christmas. Included among these was the Worldwide Church of God (before its recent conversion to Evangelical Christianity) and the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Richard said...

Man, the wealth of information in this thread ought to be enough to knock any half way honest religious mind out of its nonsense.

Fiery starts it with "Sacrifice? You call that sacrifice?"

Protium hits us between the eyes with a brief history of early western religions —no small feat. Then TTEyes comes in with a further explanation of the patterns in that history. She then focuses in on celestial movement and early religious holidays and their rejection or usurpation by different factions of Christianity.

Positively erudite.

Sean the Blogonaut F.C.D. said...

Richard,

I have a vision of Reg walking around with fingers in his ears singing "lalalalalala, I can't hear you"

Richard said...

Sean, You got that right!!!!!

Except it is way more evil than that, because his mind does it for him. He doesn't need his fingers to hide the words, and their meaning, his mind weasels out of anything that might make any sane person think.

That's the thing that Doofus does not get (see Fiery's thread on the kids given the anti-Darwin tour at the museum). Religious education can even pretend to logic, and teach children to become impossible block heads. Then as adults they damn their own daughters for dancing (see Footloose the movie).

Religious faith is a blatant form of mass insanity, one need only look at the insane things they do:
—from eat a wafer thinking it's jeebus-meat to exorcisms,
—from voluntary crucifixion to burning candles to save the souls of the already DEAD!!!
—from committing babies to a lifetime of insanity by sprinkling water on them, to reciting Hail Marys for each bead on a dumb, long and not-very-attractive necklace they call a rosary.

Bonkers mate, bonkers!

BTW, can you get someone into the X-Mercy ministries to report what is going on... preferably with a hidden camera and mike?

Sean the Blogonaut F.C.D. said...

As to the X-mercy girls and Mercy Ministries. They routinely deal with people trying to smuggle in laxatives and instruments of harm. I can't imagine getting someone on the inside. And interviewers I am sure won't be shown where they do exorcism 101.