Thursday, January 1, 2009

Thought for 2009

2008 was the year of many relationship breakups for a rather startling number of fellow bloggers, myself included. (I'm sure the rest of the world did just fine.) In honor of mine and yours (or someone you know) I leave you with this thought.

"Remember, if the man was too mellheidit to value the gift of your love, then he's nae the man you thought he was. You deserve better. ~Geralyn Dawson

In fact, you deserve someone who will cherish your love and treat it like the precious gift that it is. May 2009 be the year you find that someone.

52 comments:

Reldnahcnotlad said...

Ahh... This is very like what I'm going through right now. Being a teenager makes me a lusty scoundrel. I'm in love obviously. Like all generic teenagers. It just so happens it's my best friend I am in love with. Her boyfriend does not respect her and makes her cry a lot but she lets him do it. And He treats me like crap for fun. But hey. I have the upper hand. I have Adobe Photoshop! That is a very good line there. I'm sure she'd appreciate hearing it.

Protium the Heathen said...

mellheidit... hmmm... mellheidit. WTF does that mean? Google... one hit.. this post...

You've made that up!

@daltonchandler; Your in a tricky situation. PhotoShop will help (if you use it to frame him in a picture involving small furry animals ;-)

Fiery said...

I'm surprised you had to look it up, it's a Scottish word.

Oh, and check out his blog, he did photoshop a picture. :)

Thump Thump Eyes said...

Funny, I did the same search for that word...anyway you deserve better Fiery!

Those that have their computers pushed together, and even then email or skype one another, will stay together....that's my take on it all.

If you're spending many hours blogging or just noodling on the internets and loving it, and cant get enough of it, BUT your significant other ISNT doing the same, there will probably be problems!

Protes and I are totally immersed, and loving it YAY :-D

ozatheist said...

"May 2009 be the year you find that someone."

I hope it is; for you, me and all the other lovelorn bloggers out there.

Fiery said...

Thump- it took me six months to fully realize that, but I really do. If he can walk away so blithely from what *I* thought we had, as if it were worth nothing at all, then he isn't worth the brain cells he is taking up. And it is really disappointing. I won't settle for less than what I thought we had. So.... austa la vista baby.

Thump Thump Eyes said...

I'm glad you'll never settle for less - of course the whole thing was disappointing...gotta trust your gut instincts.. but in the end its... onward and upward as they say :))

Protium the Heathen said...

I'm still stuck with what "mellheidit" means. It gets one hit on Google which is this post.

"It's a Scottish word" but has never been posted on the internet before... ever. Not even the quote comes up. I even asked a Scottish friend and he's never heard the word.

Miss Bad Luck Bride has made this word up.

I just can't appreciate the quote entirely without knowing the intended meaning. Is it just me?

Anyway I am more than bonevaluvant that you posted it ;-)

Fiery said...

I totally give you that maybe she invented the word. :) Or maybe it is the scottish equivalent of arsehat or chuckle head or some other made up insult.

The quote is from a novel called Cold Feet.

I love that I have captured your attention with a quote from a historical romance novel. HAHAHAHA!!! :P

Now let's go play on the Forum!

Traceytreasure said...

Wishing you all the best now and always....

May 2009 be the year that all your dreams come true!!


Hugs!!

Half rabbit said...

What can I say. Except that hat (in the silhouette)is too small for the circumference of that persons head.

Is Protium Scottish-kiki? Can I steal your tartan hat. Mine has moth holes.

Fiery said...

Ok, "novel" might have been overstating it. It is a short story in a collection called "A season in the Highlands" with 5 authors contributing.

Protium the Heathen said...

ha ha.. it's gone from a historical novel to a short story with made up words on a "highlands" theme... noice.

Hope I haven't been too mellheidit..


@0.5Rabbit; You can't have my tartan hat but your welcome to my sporran as it has become musty!

Fiery said...

It's not a hat, it's a wreath of flowers.

:P

Richard said...

Why is she wearing a frying pan on her head?

Thump Thump Eyes said...

I agree with Richard, the figure on the right is definitely wearing a frying pan!

Thump Thump Eyes said...

oz said:
"May 2009 be the year you find that someone."

Happy New Year Ozatheist...hope 2009 brings you lots and lots of good things including that special someone :)

Johnny said...

Thump- it took me six months to fully realize that, but I really do. If he can walk away so blithely from what *I* thought we had, as if it were worth nothing at all, then he isn't worth the brain cells he is taking up. And it is really disappointing. I won't settle for less than what I thought we had. So.... austa la vista baby

What *you* thought we had obviously wasn't what we had, otherwise we would still be as we were. Did you want me to fake it for your sake once I fully realised I didn't want to be with you? Surely not!

I am truly sorry this is how it turned out. You are probably right I am not worth the brain cells I take up in others.

I am sorry the communication hasn't been there. I know how hard it is to be loved and left and then have close communication, it just stretches out the pain. Also if I'm being honest Fiery I feel disgustingly guilty about how things turned out and find it very hard to deal with knowing how I hurt you.

Communication is a two way street is it not? Do you think I would have ignored you had you kept communicating with me?

Fiery said...

Johnny said,What *you* thought we had obviously wasn't what we had, Yeah, that's why I put it that way. I fully acknowledge that I experienced our relationship differently than you did. Profoundly so. It's not exactly something I'm proud of. I am FULLY aware of this fact.

Did you want me to fake it for your sake once I fully realised I didn't want to be with you? When have I ever given the impression that I wanted you to lie? All I ever wanted was for you to be honest with me and tell me how you were feeling, what you were thinking. YOU were the one who stopped wanting to talk about things and I quote, “I would rather have a hemorrhoidectomy without anaesthetic than EVER talk about this relationship again.” Not a lot of grey area there. No talking. No fixing. Just a long slow painful death of a relationship that SHOULD have been ended February of 2008 the moment I said, “Hey guess what? I'm coming to Australia and we can meet.”

Do you remember what your reaction was? No, of course you don't. Because I was never important enough to hold onto mentally when we weren't in direct communication. Let me remind you. You said, and I quote (again), “Oh... well... hmmmm... I'll have to check with my [12 year old] daughter and see what she thinks.” I beg your fucking pardon? We have the unprecedented chance to get together in 4 months instead of 8 YEARS and you're checking with a fucking KID about whether or not it will be ok? I wasn't moving in permanently, just staying over for the better part of 2 weeks.

So yeah, right there that was a big old fucking wake up call to me and I ignored it.

A sharp clean break would have been much better than the slow death we put each other through.

I am sorry the communication hasn't been there. This is an Aussie apology and I know precisely what it means. “I am sorry that you are bothered that I stopped writing and communicating with you. But I'm not going to do anything to change it. So you'll have to get over it.” Well thanks for that. My email addresses haven't changed. You asked if we could chat, I said yes and I never heard from you again.

I know how hard it is to be loved and left and then have close communication, it just stretches out the pain. Yes, it does. Thanks for that.

Also if I'm being honest Fiery I feel disgustingly guilty about how things turned out and find it very hard to deal with knowing how I hurt you. Truly, I didn't know you cared enough to even feel guilty. Might have been nice to know that there was some regret on your part. To know that you had wished things could have turned out differently.

Communication is a two way street is it not? , Do you think I would have ignored you had you kept communicating with me? I wasn't the only one who stopped talking. If you missed me, you certainly knew where to find me. Let's see... my two blogs, my email, my other email, the AFA forum (while it was working), Skype (which you could never be bothered to set up), Google talk, yahoo chat, my home phone number, my cell phone number. Oh yeah. You could have communicated. But you didn't want to. Why? Because you couldn't be arsed.

You hurt me more deeply than anyone else in my life ever has.

I was an utter fool and gave away my heart too easily. I was ready to ...... It really doesn't matter now, does it? No.

I have so many walls built around my heart now I wonder if anyone will ever get through again. Some day. Maybe. But it will not be easy for them. Thanks for the life lesson. I would have been better off if I had never met you. And I live with that. Every. Single. Day.

Makarios said...

Good grief! You're 35 years old and still don't know that health attracts health and sickness attracts sickness?

It's too bad that you got hurt, but don't blame him. You attract exactly the kind of person that someone of your character can attract and it can be no other way.

Improve who you are or settle for this but don't pretend to hold out for someone "better" when someone better would only run from someone like you. In fact, someone better just did.

Fiery said...

Attention victims of spousal abuse, Makarios would like you to know, "You attract exactly the kind of person that someone of your character can attract and it can be no other way." Stop whining that your spouse beats you, after all Makarios says, "Improve who you are or settle for this..."

Attention victims of rape, Makarios would like you to know, "You attract exactly the kind of person that someone of your character can attract and it can be no other way."

Attention victims of date rape, Makarios would like you to know, "You attract exactly the kind of person that someone of your character can attract and it can be no other way."

Attention divorcees, Makarios would like you to know, "You attract exactly the kind of person that someone of your character can attract and it can be no other way." What's the matter? The divorce take you by surprise? Well too bad. Makarios says, "Improve who you are or settle for this but don't pretend to hold out for someone "better" when someone better would only run from someone like you. In fact, someone better just did."

Attention Makarios. If sickness attracts sickness, and health attracts, what does that say about your presence on my blog. Curiosity as to how the lepers live?

Fiery said...

Oh... and Makarios- aka Fuckwitted Fundy. As far as Like Attracting Like goes?

I have some amazing people that read and comment on my blog.

YAY ME!!!!

And more importantly YAY THEM!!!!

Fuck off back to your fundy world and leave us atheists in peace.

If you're the cure, we'll stick with the disease,thanks. :P

..|..

Makarios said...

I'm talking about those in relationships. Rape and date rape don't count. But those who marry someone abusive or someone who requires a divorce? Absolutely. Sickness attracts sickness and health attracts health. I'll make it a little easier for you.

Divorce happens because either one or both people weren't marriage material or one or both people were a terrible judge of character. Period.

Emotionally unhealthy people aren't attracted to emotionally healthy people (they usually find them boring), and emotionally healthy people run from unhealthy people. There are no innocents in this game.

Improve who you are or you'll wind up with the next one being just like the last one. Any light going on for you here? Any light at all?

I'm at your blog because I find pathological thinking fascinating.

Fiery said...

So not only are you insulting me, you are insulting Johnny, Joe, OzAtheist, Possum Momma, Thump, pretty much everyone who reads my blog.

You are indeed a pathological thinker Makarios, and I don't find you fascinating.

Note to self- stop feeding the trolls.

Poodles said...

So Makarios why the fuck would god let sick people marry sick people all the time? That would make them one sick voyeristic asshole.

Richard said...

Markarios is consistent in his belief system, and his views are a nifty, though tragically wrong, example.

Lets examine the very subject that he says he is fascinated by: "pathological thinking"!

Religion holds that an incorporate Consciousness, with 'powers', exists somehow, somewhere or everywhere, at any time.

This is Intrinsicism, with a capital "I".

Ordinary things, animate or inanimate, have intrinsic qualities or attributes that are a natural aspect of their composition. Lava flows are intrinsic to volcanoes, grasping is intrinsic to opposable thumbs.

Intrinsicism is a philosophical approach of viewing certain ideas as actually existing *in* things.

The Pythagoreans believed perfect numbers and geometric forms & rules actually existed in the Universe.

Religious minds think God is Intrinsic to the Universe, that His rules and laws are embodied in it, and that we were given free will (imposed upon us by God) to enable us to choose Him or reject Him (and go to Hell if we choose wrong).

(I see that as the morality of a mugger: "I am giving you the freedom to choose: you can give me your wallet or have me slit your throat!")

Markarios argues that a person's choices are built in: "health attracts health and sickness attracts sickness. That is, the choices are like the opposite poles of a magnet: Intrinsic. They just ARE, and that is that, Stupid!

But, if such choices were so profoundly Intrinsic, Fiery could not have helped herself & should not be blamed!

But Markarios goes further, he wants to have his cake and eat it too. He does blame her & suggests she should change her character, saying, "improve who you are". Which is it, buster?

He then, insultingly, suggests she is a poor judge of character, as if judging character is the simplest thing in the world. It isn't. Nearly every person on the planet presents the best front they can, but their true character may not appear until one or more deeper issues appear. This may take months or years for an innocent person to discover. Hindsight may make it appear that an earlier appraisal was possible, but it actually was not ...because it was surrounded and masked by the 'front'.

Once again, Markarios believes character is an Intrinsic and self-evident thing, such that judging it is achieved by some automatic and immediate revelation. I am sure he will deny this, but the wording of his comment clearly presumes it.

So Fiery is castigated for acting on things she cannot help, AND for failing to have the proper revelation regarding the character of another.

I am sure most people reading his comments would be appalled at Markarios's basic rudeness but, looking a little deeper, his pathological thinking is much more fascinating. Like so many Fundies, Markarios freely pontificates on matters that people half his age understand a lot better than he.

So I say, "Good Grief" Markarios, you have reached retirement age and are still living by the primitive Intrinsicist nonsense of your Sunday School childhood.

(BTW, I am a lot closer to your age than Fiery's.)

Note Markarios's choice of name: that of three separate Cypriot archbishops, with the most recent one achieving world wide recognition as an ethnarch -an ethnic leader (best connotation), with all the religio-racial bigotry that suggests.

Makarios said...

“Markarios argues that a person's choices are built in:”

I’m most certainly not saying that. We are absolutely free agents. Granted, some people start farther back than others due to upbringing and such but all of us are able to change our behaviours, our friends, our goals, the type of relationships we have, the type of people with whom we have relationships and on and on. To keep choosing the same type of person over and over and over again and expect to be treated differently is pretty stupid.

Now, you might be one of those people who got out of an unhealthy relationship, and then you said, “Never again!” But it did happen again. And maybe it happened again after that. So you wonder, “How could that have happened when I was so determined to never let another person into my life who didn’t respect me? And how could that have happened, when I fully intended to find someone healthy?"

The reason it happens again and again is because it doesn’t matter what you intend to happen. If your character hasn’t changed significantly, and if your values and morals haven’t changed a great deal, then nothing else will ever change and you will be with an unhealthy person again. It can’t be any other way.

This isn’t insulting to anyone. It’s just the way life is. Having a good relationship / marriages isn’t a crap shoot. Good relationships are made by good people. It's stupid to expect someone who isn't a good person to treat you good. My guess is that all of the people you suggest that I'm insulting are those who don't have a clue what a good person looks, sounds and act like. Again, that's not my fault.

“This may take months or years for an innocent person to discover.”

Yes - and? If you decide to get deep with someone after one or five or even twenty dates, don’t blame me for you getting screwed over.

What usually happens when two unhealthy people are attracted to each other, is that their sickness causes them to misinterpret the qualities that they think they see in the other person. As time wears on, their mistake becomes painfully obvious. What was once seen as fun-loving is now seen as irresponsible. Stable and structured becomes rigid. Concerned becomes smothering. Caring becomes controlling. Outgoing becomes flirtatious. Carefree becomes undependable. What once attracted you to this person, now drives you away.

But that isn’t his/her fault! When you grow tired of someone, or when that person hurts you, don’t blame that person for being the very person you chose to be with. When you two met, it was your sickness that projected good qualities that were never there, and ignored poor qualities that were always there.

“So I say, "Good Grief" Markarios, you have reached retirement age and are still living by the primitive Intrinsicist nonsense of your Sunday School childhood.”

What in the world are you talking about? I’ve never been taught nor do I know anyone, except you, who believes that we are who we are and that’s that end of it. What a ridiculous way of seeing human nature. People change all the time - even atheists :-)

BTW I give the definition of Makarios that I mean to convey. Choose another if you want.

Richard said...

Markarios, your basic argument does not wash, and you are simply repeating yourself along with the hollow denial I predicted.

Worse, you are now impugning me and my capacity to form relationships, with no knowledge of whether I have been happily married or not, let alone why relationships I may have had broke down.

For amusements sake: my first significant relationship failed as she became increasingly bureaucratic over her years working as... wait for it... a bureaucrat! I had warned her not to let that happen when she took the job. Nonetheless, she brought that mentality home, until our children and I became a "show and tell" tool for her disingenuous image of what a family should look like to her peers at work. She ceased to live by and parent by the standards we had long agreed upon.

My second relationship was made in Heaven, speaking figuratively, but she came down with a significant mental disorder that has an adult onset (late twenties, early thirties). She effectively robbed me of personal wealth. In hindsight, where she had at first properly earned it, she also progressively conned me so as to loot my love and admiration for her. That is, she became someone entirely different over a period of about five years. I had known her for five years before we ever became involved and she was more sane than my ex.

On both counts, your interpretation just does not fly!

Your arrogance, in presuming I must have had relationships with problems because of my character, is as out of place as your remarks to Fiery. The fact that I have had problems is NOT a proof of your view. It is akin to the man who says lightning will hit that golfer, and then when it does he says, "See!" In fact, he had nowhere near enough knowledge to make such a claim, and the fact that it happened that way was sheer luck.

As for the values and morals I hold, and which you assume are somehow a character fault, they are vastly more impeccable and more explicit than you could ever imagine. Why? Because they are not biblical, for one thing.

In particular, my primary values are Reason, Purpose and Self Esteem. These are achieved through the following virtues: Rationality, Independence, Productivity, Honesty, Integrity, Justice and Pride (of the kind that makes one want to do an excellent job, and the satisfaction of having done so).

Note that Justice includes treating others fairly, and does not mean using them, nor denigrating them unless they show they deserve it.

How many people can even list four virtues by which they consciously live?? How many can actually explain them and their rational basis? I can, but not here.

The difficulty is that few people can live by those virtues, but most pretend to; that is not a weakness on my part.

You wrote,
"When you two met, it was your sickness that projected good qualities that were never there, and ignored poor qualities that were always there."

That is utter pap, and ignores what I wrote in my previous comment. People can take five years to reveal their true nature... fair-weather friends abound, and seeing 'through' them often requires a little rough weather. And what of the person who is apparently carefree, but is also responsible where it matters? The same challenge can be directed to the other character elements in your list.

Bottom line: one has to take the time to find out, else one rejects good people unjustly, not to mention simplistically! Your Intrinsicist view of Man, on this view, continues to shine through, brightly.

As for my "Good Grief" remark, it surprises me not at all that your reply would be, "What in the world are you talking about?" Understanding it would require that you cease to think via Intrinsicism, and actually unravel the childlike contradictions you continue to express. That requires a proper conceptual framework not possible to Intrinsicists, unless they deliberately work at discovering reason. For one thing, reason requires a proper grasp of context (in this case in human nature), and an understanding that absolutes do not survive when applied out of context as you are doing here!

Richard said...

Clearly, I am, appropriately, losing patience!

Richard said...

But, I haven't yet said the very tempting "Fundy Bullshit". Maybe I just did snerk!

Makarios said...

“In fact, he had nowhere near enough knowledge to make such a claim.”

Your right. I only have a Graduate Degree for training, 3,500 married couples worth of counselling experience, and 35 years worth of quality marriage experience. How could I possibly know as much as you about this subject?
=====

“How many people can even list four virtues by which they consciously live?? How many can actually explain them and their rational basis? I can, but not here.”

You forgot humility - Pfft
=====

Look, reality is, an unhealthy person, when looking for a future partner, might say something like, “Can she dance?” “Does he like to party.” “What an awesome body.” “What kind of a car does he have?” “Does she make a lot of money.” “Is he popular with others?” They won’t care one bit if the person has been divorced or if the person is honest.

Instead their lives show the philosophy of “show me some attention and I’m yours.”

Of course you’re the exception to all of this, which is why I was speaking to Fiery and not to you.

But maybe you're her daddy or maybe you think that women are so weak they need someone like you to speak for them?

Poodles said...

Makarios said:

"Your right. I only have a Graduate Degree for training, 3,500 married couples worth of counselling experience, and 35 years worth of quality marriage experience. How could I possibly know as much as you about this subject?"

Your in this case is combination of two words. You and are. Therefore the proper spelling is You're.

No graduate degree here, just public education and a bachelors. I also have two life degrees one in "smart ass" the other in "corrects bad spelling".

Makarios said...

Drat! I hate it when I do that. It just confirms for the godless that we Christians are uneducated.

Richard said...

Markarios, you have not even considered what I said, merely dismissed it. So much for reasoned discussion... another example of "pathological thinking" from the man who thinks he is studying it, when he is the best subject he could examine.

However many couples you have duped with your faith healer mumbo-jumbo is irrelevant, you do not know ME.

Nonetheless, you presumed my character and presumed to advise me with the same broken record refrain you applied to Fiery and goodness knows how many others! How ignorant and blind can a man be, to make pronouncements with no knowledge whatsoever of his subject. Ever heard of the term "Quack"?

In case you missed it, you were talking about me in your second comment, but you've no idea what you have tangled with. I am not the least bit humble; humility is the vice of those who believe they are either absolute losers, or who arrogantly pretend to be just another loser to sucker believers in altruism... like the Pope.

But that is irrelevant, what is glaring is that humility, is the last thing you have practiced with your uninvited advice. You claim to subscribe to the vice of humility, but drop in here practicing its opposite. "Do as I say not as I do", eh? Have you never heard of HYPOCRISY? That is a good example of "thinking pathology". Thanks for demonstrating!

Psychology is pre-Aristotelian in every respect, except perhaps for Cognitive Behaviour Modification, which is just barely there. What you actually do is play mind games and God, with 3,500 innocent victims who wander off smiling just as some tribal family might after a visit from the tribe's witch doctor. It's quackery no matter how you dress it up!

Your Fundy 'credentials' are meaningless to any who have a modicum of reason. Indeed you prove that you lack reason in every minute the word "Jesus" crosses your mind or sits on your blog.

Pfft, yourself! Get Lost.

Fiery said...

"Humility is a virtue" said the man who then, unasked, goes on to proclaim that he "only" has a Graduate Degree for training, 3,500 married couples worth of counselling experience, and 35 years worth of quality marriage experience.

Humility is defined as, "A quality by which a person considering his own defects has a humble opinion of himself and willingly submits himself to God and to others for God's sake." St. Bernard defines it as, "A virtue by which a man knowing himself as he truly is, abases himself."

Makarios' humility- FAIL!!!!!

BWAHAHAHAHAHA

Richard said...

Well put, Fiery!! BWA HA HA indeed!

Protium the Heathen said...

You have to admit it was all getting a bit serious till Macaroni came and gave us some lols.

May I use a Johnny phrase? Yes?

Macaroni you're a snide cunt, now piss off!

Makarios said...

“Markarios, you have not even considered what I said, merely dismissed it.”

Give me something worth discussing and we’re on. Instead I get, “God is intrinsic to the universe therefore our characters are intrinsic to us.” Give me a break!
=====

“faith healer mumbo-jumbo”

All of my training is secular and I have only worked in secular agencies using secular paradigms of understand relationships.

On the other hand, for what it's worth, I'm sorry if you've had a bad experience in the Mental Health field. Actually, I agree with much (all?) of what you said. There's a lot of junk out there prentending to be something more than that. On the other hand, what do we do with all the people desperately seeking help? If people had friends they could trust and talk to there'd be no need for counsellors. Unfortunately, that is just not the case. And unfortunately there's just no getting a job without that piece of paper.
=====

“Nonetheless, you presumed my character and presumed to advise me”

Actually, I don’t even think about you. It's just that you won’t go away. I came here to talk to Fiery and I've only had her in mind when I’ve written any of this.
=====

“I am not the least bit humble”

Really? I would have never guessed. Good luck with that.
=====

"Do as I say not as I do", eh?"

After 35 years of marriage and 40 years of being together my wife and I both rate our marriage at 9 / 10. You don’t get that by saying one thing and doing another. In fact, if we hadn’t made a conscious effort to change who we are there is no doubt that our marriage wouldn’t have made it past four years.
=====

"Humility is a virtue" said the man who then, unasked, goes on to proclaim that he "only"

Besides the fact that every human on the planet is a hypocrite, I don't think that I've said anywhere that humility is my strong suit. In fact there's not one vice that isn't a struggle for me. Perhaps you've noticed :-)

Regardless, I used the word “only” because an M.A. seems to be the new Grade 12. In one place I worked we had 50 applicants for an entry level position before the job was even posted and half of those had Ph.D’s.
=====

“has a Graduate Degree for training, 3,500 married couples worth of counselling experience, and 35 years worth of quality marriage experience.”

If I thought that any of this had any value beyond the present discussion then I wouldn’t be humble, I’d be an atheist. :-)
=====

Guys! How can I piss off when it was Fiery’s advertisement for new friends that invited me here? Besides, I like making new friends. All this kidding around and pretending you don’t like me makes it feel kind of like family. Thanks guys xoxoxo

Seriously, Fiery, who you are matters. Who you are determines who you will be attracted to. Thinking that some guy is nuts for putting the well-being of his “fucking KID” before his relationship well-being means something Fiery.

The next two lines of what you wrote are what hooked me.

“You hurt me more deeply than anyone else in my life ever has.”

That truly is awful. I can be pretty crude and rude but I really am sorry that you've had to go through this.

The thing is, it doesn’t need to happen to you again. It’s just that putting on more layers of protection won’t do any good. Something significant has to change - in you.

For example, when you said, “I was an utter fool and gave away my heart too easily. I was ready to ......”
Well, you might have been referring to doing his dishes, or washing his clothes or taking his child to the park. But whatever you were ready to do, loneliness and the thrill of a new relationship can cause us do some really self-destructive things.

That is why we need to be the kind of people who will not be attracted to unsafe people.

Most of those that I’ve worked with have come to believe that love is demonstrated by feelings that are obsessive, possessive, insecure, and driven by the fear of being alone. It’s based on looks and wealth and charm. Worldly love is manipulative and based upon "Can YOU make ME happy?"

Let me give you an example that is extreme in number but typical in nature.
“I will never marry again.” This was said by Barbara Hutton (who was at the time heiress to the multi million-dollar Woolworth fortune) after divorcing her second husband.

“I will never marry again. You can’t go on being a fool forever.” This was said by Barbara Hutton after divorcing her third husband, four years after divorcing her second husband.

“This is positively my final marriage.” This was said by Barbara Hutton after marrying her sixth husband, ten years after her third divorce.

“He is the composite of all my previous husbands’ good qualities, without any of their bad. I have never been so happy in my life.” This was said by Barbara Hutton after marrying her seventh husband, eight years after the sixth.

Two years later Barbara Hutton divorced her seventh husband.

The fact is, healthy people run from unhealthy people, and unhealthy people find healthy people boring. The two are never attracted to each other. If you are newly out of a relationship and you haven’t had a HUGE awakening to the growth that needs to take place in YOU, and if you have not done anything to bring about that growth, then you are doomed to more of the same.

That's not an insult Fiery. It's just a fact of life. Fiery, you deserve better. Please don't miss this opportunity for change.

Richard said...

Markarios, it was not until you got to "On the other hand" in your last comment, that you begin to show Fiery, or anyone else here, any decency and sense.

It remains that
*- you perpetrated some pretty wicked "thinking pathologies";
*- simply stating "healthy characters attract healthy characters" is a wicked oversimplification of the nature of the human psyche, or more properly, of the human mind's psycho-epistemology.

I contest your view that all humans are hypocrites, unless you wish to include trivial issues like misspellings, and even then such comments are not made all that seriously unless there is an egregious trend that transcends triviality. Fiery is not a hypocrite in any real sense, so your statement is an example of the fallacy of hasty generalization which would be another example of "thinking pathology".

For Fiery's sake, if no one else's, continue with the intellect and tone that follows your "On the other hand" sentence, and explain just what a "healthy character" is.

She/we might even be interested in your explaining what to do if there are conflicting views on what a healthy character actually is.

In both of the above, "healthy" and "character" need to be defined, each in the context of the other.

You might find the full concept of "psycho-epistemology" (particularly the third quotation down) to be valuable. To really understand the term, one would also have to understand the full mechanisms involved in a proper epistemology... which is a lot of reading and thinking *work*.

Makarios said...

So Richard, did Fiery rent you or what?

Fiery said...

And the conversation finally gets interesting...

Makarios said, "Fiery’s advertisement for new friends". I am most curious how you found me and what advertisement you speak of.

And if you came here wanting to be friends with me, perhaps it would have been better for you to start your first comment to me with fact finding questions instead of assumptions.

Good grief! You're 35 years old and still don't know... By not looking for more information, all you have are first impressions. Which is a pity, because most first impressions are inaccurate enough that the longer they are used as the sole source of knowledge, the further from the truth you get.

It's too bad that you got hurt, but don't blame him. I don't recall blaming him. If what I wrote looks like I do, then maybe it is because I am writing from within the situation and didn't explain it very well. Maybe you should have asked me who is to blame for what happened. Maybe you should read the post that I put up on my blog BEFORE you had the nerve to comment on my reply to Johnny. It would have given you at least a bit more information and perhaps insight into how I am coping. I think the videos themselves are rather revealing. But as per your very first visit here, I'm sure you couldn't be bothered.

Improve who you are or settle for this Such generic advice. With no concretes, no examples of what needs improvement. Why is that? Oh yes, because you know basically nothing about me. Except that I am an atheist and therefore flawed in your book.

HA! What a great play on words.

when someone better would only run from someone like you. In fact, someone better just did. You have no idea why our relationship ended, no idea what the good stuff was, where our struggles lay or anything else about what happened between us.

And that all from your first comment on this subject.

Oh and about his daughter and my thoughts on her and their relationship.

You are so far off the mark about what I meant that I am struggling hard not to dismiss you entirely and ignore you for the remainder of your stay on my blog.

You don't ask, you presume.

You have no idea why I am upset with him over that very specific situation or what it reflects about him, our relationship and even his role as a father. NONE!!!!!!

No questions, just assumptions and presumptions.

You come to my blog, seeking to be friends, and deliver the most illadvised undesired marital counseling pap it's been my misfortune to read since I heard Dr. Phil on Oprah about 6 years ago.

Not impressed. I'd ask for my money back. but....

Care to try again and gather some real information?

Or do you wish to continue in your self-imposed delusion?

Makarios said...

“And the conversation finally gets interesting...”

You think so? Cause I’m pretty much out of here. I’ll tell you why in a bit.
=====

“And if you came here wanting to be friends with me,”

Oh come on, Fiery. You’re sharper than that. >“Guys! All this kidding around and pretending you don’t like me makes it feel kind of like family.<
Girl, that’s sarcasm. Couldn’t you tell that?
=====

“all you have are first impressions.”

Mmm, no, I’ve read enough of your stuff that I think I have quite a bit more than a first impression. Not that I needed more than the first but what I’ve read certainly confirmed the first impression.
======

“Oh and about his daughter and my thoughts on her and their relationship. You are so far off the mark”

So correct me. Transform “a fucking KID!” into something positive for me.
======

“Not impressed. I'd ask for my money back. but....”

Ya, well, you’re the expert.
======

“Such generic advice. Why is that?”

It’s because of the atheist philosophy that goes:

“I don’t need God in order to be good. Since I don’t need God in order to be good then I have to believe that I AM good.”

That's shown in people like Richard who take virtues that are lacking in his character and turns it into a plus but calling virtues a vice. Since that's the kind of people I'm dealing with, what advice could I possibly give that would seem worthwhile or necessary to you and your faithful followers? Besides, once I was reminded of the atheist mind-set, eg. “Humility is for the weak,” well, I realised I was up against a FUBAR or worse, a group of them. There’s simply no point whatsoever in wasting words that would just be trampled by children who giggle over changing someone’s name to Macaroni.

Before I go, just let me say, since I’m a Christian, even though I haven’t said anything from the perspective of Christianity, all you are able to hear is “Fundy” remarks. I won’t get into the bigotry that’s inherent in your thought process, but let me give you an example from a secular person who is saying exactly what I’m saying. Maybe it will be easier for you to hear if it's coming from another godless person.

Shoot! I can’t remember her name right now, but a famous singer in America was interviewed a while back - Cheryl Crow - and one of the things that she was asked was, “Do you think that you’ll ever meet Mr. Right?” And she replied,

“Maybe I already have. But maybe I wasn’t the right kind of person so he wasn’t attracted to me. I’ve grown and changed a lot in the last few years so maybe I’ll get another chance.”

That’s some amazing insight for a godless person. Maybe someday you too can take a risk and quit pretending that you’re ok. Good luck on your journey.

Richard said...

Get lost Markarios, you are a pompous and extraordinarily ignorant hypocrite, too narrow and old to think outside your Fundy box, period.

Fiery said...

Umm Richard? It's Macaroni. Not Makarios.

And the appropriate resonse is

DING DONG MACARONI's GONE.

And about bloody time.

Thank you for taking a potentially healing moment and spreading fundyfeces all over it. Do jesus a favor and never darken my doorstep again.

Cock knuckle.

Richard said...

Overused, but appropriate, with friends like macaroon, who needs enemies. Total dickwad.

Makarios said...

Well, Richard, you finally got my attention with two of your comments:
- I’m Old
- I’m Pompous

I’m 57 - I retired when I was 51 because we took on two 8-year-olds, two 7-year-olds and one 4-year-old, all brain damaged special needs children. That’s a load; too much for one person. Luckily I'd had a good job that allowed me to retire at 51. So . . . 57 . . . ok, ya, I’m old. But I don’t feel old. Anyway, to the pompous statement. Let me ask you some questions about that:

(1) What do you look at when judging whether a family or group photograph, that you’re a part of, is good or not?

(2) Do you see yourself as being a better driver than most people you know? Or do you see yourself as being a worse driver than most people you know?

(3) Do you see yourself as being emotionally healthier and more mature than your partner or former partners? Or are you less healthy and less mature than your partner or former partners?

It is the very rare person for whom one’s perceived self-importance doesn’t show up in these questions. And I guarantee you that in number (3), your former partner is thinking the same thing about you.

That is how out of touch we are with the reality of our corrupt nature. The reason you don’t feel corrupt is the same reason a fish doesn’t feel wet. Because it is immersed. You won’t recognise your corruption until you find a way to step out of it and view it from a distance. You can’t know that you need to be rescued until you first recognised that you’re lost.

As C. S. Lewis said, “No one knows how bad he is until he tries really hard to be good. A good man knows of the evil still left in him while a thoroughly bad person thinks that he’s good.”

Which leads me to my final comment for Fiery. You seemed to think that I was addressing this relationship stuff because you are an atheist. None of what I said had anything to do with atheism or Christianity. I was just stating the way relationships work - Period. Seems as though you want to spend a few more years trying to prove me wrong. Go in peace.

Harry Nads said...

“Maybe I already have. But maybe I wasn’t the right kind of person so he wasn’t attracted to me. I’ve grown and changed a lot in the last few years so maybe I’ll get another chance.”

That’s some amazing insight for a godless person.


So are you alluding that most godless people do not have good insight? Stereotype much?

Makarios said...

"So are you alluding that most godless people do not have good insight?"

Yes. Yes Harry. I'm alluding exactly that. Not Richard of course. Richard could teach self-awareness. He's so self-aware that he thinks self-esteem has to be cultured.

Richard said...

Aegean Markarios: age is not simply number, it is also an attitude. Yours is is rotting.

You speak of "our corrupt nature", and say "the reason [I: Richard] don't feel corrupt is the same reason a fish doesn't feel wet." Utterly ridiculous. That applies as accurately to those who are wrong, as to those who are right!

Essentially, what you are really arguing (& not so surreptitiously) is Original Sin! That alone demonstrates egregious "thinking pathology". What baby is evil?

From your perspective, you are wet all over! So, go soak your head, but don't drip it upon on us. In case you missed it, that is a reference to hypocrisy.

I add, C.S. Lewis and his Christian indoctrination of children, via his childrens books, be damned!

In essence, you expound a form of self-imposed insanity. It amounts to:
- believing in,
- kneeling in self subjugation before,
- and living by,
the 'rules' of whatever "Flying Spaghetti Monster" de jour your parents taught you to kneel & bow before.

Had you been born of Muslim parents, you would be kneeling and groveling before Allah.

Had you been born of Hindu parents, you would be hailing Ganesh (or feeding him teaspoons of milk, snerk), as well as Vishnu, Shiva et al. —some dozen other lesser gods.

Had you been born an American Indian, you might be begging Awonawilona, or Gahe Also Ga'an or Thoume' for insight into making love, hunting or taming wild horses. Duh, they sure do help!

The bottom line is that you never bothered to examine what was happening in your mind. You took whatever nonsense had been planted there for granted, and then built it up, as the ultimate in reason and sensibility.

Unquestioningly, you went on, to become the community witch doctor, putting up a 'shingle', and offering your unfounded profundities to whomever would listen... As the idiots you attracted walked away happy, your self-esteem ballooned, your confidence in your rightness and righteousness grew. ...not because you were correct in what you did, but because you tricked others into subscribing to it.

Nothing like the approval of idiots, Markarios. Sure, sugar attracts more flies than vinegar, but both can be devoid of moral value.

Witch Doctors all want more power from their clients/victims; Rand called such Witch Doctors "Second-Handers".

In each case, you would simply be applying variants of the false principles by which you judge yourself and others, ...and by which you presume to advise equally insane couples.

(I pause, as chyme surges upwards at that abominable thought.)

There are many ways to be wrong, and only a few ways to be right. When anything supernatural is invoked, it is automatically and necessarily wrong,and essentially insane. Worse, in the process of its acceptance, its acceptors become willing to commit the most heinous and vicious acts against other men. They become, in essence, Hannibal's ideal.

Speaking of fish not knowing they are wet, you wrote,
"None of what I said had anything to do with atheism or Christianity. I was just stating the way relationships work - Period"

For Christ's Sake (snerk!), where do you think your views are founded, if not in Christian Intrinsicism, and its concomitant accusation that children are born in sin, Original Sin?! That view is as sick as gassing Jews with Zyklon B.

One can demonstrate to a rational mind that it has erred, but doing so for a determinedly irrational mind, such as a Jeebus Fundy, is akin to cleaning out the Aegean Stables.

Richard said...

Godless people do not have good insight, by what standard, -the 'insight' of the God-fearing, Markarios?

Get lost.

Fiery said...

Richard wrote, Godless people do not have good insight, by what standard, -the 'insight' of the God-fearing, Markarios?

Get lost.


He is Richard. He is.

And it's .... sad. In a pitiful, pathetic, self-deluded sort of way.

Makarios said...

Here's another example from another secular person - some relationship Dr. on msn

Dear Dr. Gilda,
I am divorced now after what seemed like an endless struggle. I had to file all the paperwork after my husband took off and abandoned me. He was a pathological liar and a drug addict. We were only married for a year, but it was the worst year of my life. I had dated him for three years, and he turned out to have a secret past as a heroin abuser. The reason his friends and family treated me as a savior is because everyone believed I "rescued him" from his past of lying, stealing, suicide attempts, psychotic behavior, even a mental institution stint … the whole nine yards. He hid or minimized most of this to me, making it seem like it happened years ago, not in the four months before we started dating.

Now that the divorce is final, how can I trust anyone else? When I think about dating someone, I imagine hiring investigators to follow him, checking his phone in the middle of the night, even installing spyware. Should I give up on dating for a while? How can I suppress this feeling of suspicion towards everyone and everything?
— Distrusting Partner

Dear Distrusting Partner,
You are not the first person to be duped by a partner who professed to love you. Remember that woman who married the guy parading as a Rockefeller? She stayed with him for 13 years and had a child with him. And this 41-year-old woman was no slouch. She graduated from Stanford University and Harvard Business School. She was a senior partner in a prestigious consulting firm and earned over $1 million per year. Still, she was taken in. For sure, there is a difference between IQ, innate intelligence, and EQ, emotional acuity for trouble.

Sure, your ex was no prince. But part of the responsibility was yours for not asking questions and noting inconsistencies. In addition, you fell prey to a common affliction among women: the need to save someone. A savior mentality stems from wanting to feel needed and loved. The unconscious reasoning is that if your partner becomes dependent on you, he'll stay. As you have discovered, that ploy doesn't work!

What you must do now is dump the abandonment mentality that haunts you. This is how:

Analyze who you were when you met this guy. Were you needy for love? My Gilda-Gram says, "To know your partner is wise. To know yourself is enlightened."
Which signs did you pick up — and ignore — during your three years of dating? It's unlikely he didn't leave cues. Why did you choose to brush aside the evidence?
How do you feel when you're on a rescue mission? Where did you develop the notion that rescuing would guarantee loving?
Find a trusted therapist to unearth these answers.
Just as you suspect, I agree that you should refrain from dating for a while—until you feel you are on more solid ground. Trust takes time. But it begins with trusting yourself to make good choices. With help and in time, you'll come out much better than the person who entered that superficial marriage.