Friday, October 26, 2007

"How to Shut Up an Atheist if You Must" PART TWO

Authors Dinesh D’Souza and Robert Hutchinson skillfully answer, once again, the atheist’s pet questions about the existence (or non-existence) of God and how Christianity has allegedly made the world suck. Suck, for you thick atheists, is a slang word which means to make or to be really, really crappy (kind of like how our culture becomes anytime you guys mess with it).

These books will be especially beneficial for high school and college students to draw upon when their secular anti-God fuming delirious instructors start railing against God and Christianity.

For instance:

1. When the prissy anti-Christs tell you the Bible stands in the way of science, inform them that the greatest scientific geniuses in history were devout Christians—and scientists from Newton to Einstein insisted that biblical religion provided the key ideas from which experimental science could develop.


BWAHAHAHAHA! Does the image of a prissy anti-christ storming through the world hellbent on Armageddon strike anyone else as funny? Maybe he didn't mean the Revelations inspired "antichrist" but rather people who are against jeebus. Wow, it is hard to hold on to what he is saying.

"The mystical trend of our time, which shows itself particularly in the rampant growth of the so-called Theosophy and Spiritualism, is for me no more than a symptom of weakness and confusion."
- Albert Einstein

"The idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I am unable to take seriously."
- Albert Einstein

Yeah, Einstein was ALL about the jeebus factor in his work.

2. When the pissy God haters tell you the Bible condones slavery, you can remind them that slavery was abolished only when devout Christians, inspired by the Bible, launched a campaign in the early 1800s to abolish the slave trade.

Look pal, you obviously know how to use a thesaurus, I would love to know which one so I could predict your next randomly chosen derogatory term. Atheists do not hate god! Grab a dictionary, enlighten yourself. An atheist is a person who has looked inside themselves and said.... "Do I believe in god?" "Nope, no belief in god in me." That person does not then say, "I HATE GOD!" I'll tell you what a lot of atheists do hate though, is the IDEA of god. But that is a topic for another time. You cannot hate it, if it doesn't exist.

Despite the disappearance of slavery in Great Britain, slavery was a way of life in the southern colonies of America and the West Indian colonies of the British Empire.

First Steps to abolishing slavery, "By 1783, an anti-slavery movement was beginning among the British public. That year the first English abolitionist organization was founded by a group of Quakers. The Quakers continued to be influential throughout the lifetime of the movement, in many ways leading the way for the campaign. On 17 June 1783 the issue was formally brought to government by Sir Cecil Wray (Member of Parliament for Retford), who presented the Quaker petition to parliament. Also in 1783, Dr Beilby Porteus issued a call to the Church of England to cease its involvement in the slave trade and to formulate a workable policy to draw attention to and improve the conditions of Afro-Caribbean slaves."

Have christians EVER considered Quakers to be devout chrsitians????? Did you know you can be Quaker without being christian? lol And poor Porteus actually had to convince the Church of England to stop its INVOLVEMENT in the slave trade. But here in America.... what made the abolition of slavery even possible. Words, words floating in my head, "unalienable rights... life...liberty...pursuit of happiness" something foundational there. Something created in the very fabric of our society. Who... who wrote those words? It's not a name that is surfacing it is a religious affiliation. Deist. The deists wrote those words. What did the deists believe? That the universe was created by a supreme being who got the ball rolling and then LEFT IT ALONE!!!!!!! Hardly devout christians.

3. When the screechin’ teachers tell you the Bible has been proven false by archaeology, hark back and show them that each year a new archaeological discovery substantiates the existence of people, places and events we once knew solely from biblical sources, including the discovery of the Moabite stone in 1868, which mentions numerous places in the Bible, and the discovery of an inscription in 1961 that proves the existence of the biblical figure Pontius Pilate, just to name a few.

"Each year a new archaeological discovery substantiates"..... Wow. They must have HEAPS of corroborating evidence. Cool! What examples do they provide, "1868 and 1961" BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!! and what did they discover? a Moabite stone and that there was a dude named Pointius Pilate. OMG!!! The virgin birth MUST be true. Pontius Pilate LIVED!!!!!

4. When they get sweaty and tell you that the Bible breeds intolerance, refresh their memory with the fact that only those societies influenced by biblical teachings (in North and South America, Europe, and Australia) today guarantee freedom of speech and religion. Period.

Sweaty? As in perspiration? Do atheists get sweaty when they talk about the bible? I'd best refresh my anti-perspirant than. Sheesh, no sense stinking up my own blog. Does the bible teach intolerance?

black people bear the mark of cain and are inferior
homosexuals should be killed
witches should be killed
women should be seen and not heard
beat your children
slaves obey your masters
if a virgin is raped she must marry her attacker
if a woman doesn't yell loud enough when she is raped, stone her
if a woman commits adultery stone her but let the man live
if the wrong people are living in the land god wants you to inhabit, kill them all.

Yes, the bible is a hot bed of compassion and tolerance, loving kindness to others. As to the list of countries, sounds like parts of the British Empire to me.

5. When one of them queues up and quips that the Bible opposes freedom, smack ‘em with the fact that the Bible’s insistence that no one is above the law and all must answer to divine justice led to theories of universal human rights and…uh…limited government.

BWAHAHAHAH!!! The ideas for democracy came from ancient Greece and were suppressed in every way possible by the catholic church.

The following bible verses actively condone slavery... which is NOT a form of freedom.
Leviticus 25:44-46
Exodus 21:2-6
Exodus 21:7-11
Exodus 21:20-21 NAB
Ephesians 6:5
1 Timothy 6:1-2
Luke 12:47-48

6. When they tell you that Christianity and the Bible justify war and genocide, unsympathetically remind them that societies which rejected biblical morality in favor of a more “rational” and “scientific” approach to politics murdered millions upon millions more than the Crusades or the Inquisition ever did. Hello. “Atheist regimes have caused the greatest mass murders in history,” says D’Souza. Inside D’Souza’s book you’ll find little gems like, “The Crusades, the Inquisition, the Galileo affair, and witch hunts together make up less than 1% of the murders that have occurred during modern atheist regimes like Stalin, Hitler, and Mao.”

Stalin- raised christian political affiliation COMMUNIST
"Communism was a comprehensive, all-embracing religion and not simply a political party, political system or philosophy. This fact is illustrated by the numerous ways in which Communism embraced and attempted to promulgate peculiar quasi-religious (and often clearly anti-scientific) beliefs which had nothing all to do with politics or government. Although Communism typically touted itself as anti-religious and pro-science, it was, in fact, deeply anti-scientific and clearly a religion."

Hitler-
Hitler's Christianity. "In Mein Kampf, Hitler wrote: 'I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord...' As a boy, Hitler attended to the Catholic church and experienced the anti-Semitic attitude of his culture. In his book, Mein Kampf, Hitler reveals himself as a fanatical believer in God and country. This text presents selected quotes from the infamous anti-Semite himself."

Mao-
I can only assume that "Mao" refers to Mao Tse Dung or Mao Zedong. And what can we learn about good old Mao? He founded Maoism, the Marxist Communist religion and ideology founded by Chinese dictator Chairman Mao Zedong.
Yeah, he sounds like an atheist as well. NOT!

This is just a smattering of the various 411 fun the Christian is going to get as they plow through What’s So Great about Christianity and The Politically Incorrect Guide to the Bible.

Wow if this is a sample, one assumes the best the book has to offer, I am unimpressed, uninspired and certainly unwilling to shut up. Try again.

Senior pastor, college pastor and youth pastor: do yourself and your congregants a favor and teach this stuff to your church. Equip Christians to stand against the BS (belief system) of the atheists. The culture war is heating up, therefore make sure your people don’t stand intellectually naked and neutered before these no-God numb nuts.

Sorry pal, you're still intellectually naked and neutered.
"no-god numb nuts" *snerk* name calling is sooooooooo 3rd grade school yard bully type stuff.

Lastly, comfortable and cocky atheists, you had better brace yourselves. Hundreds of thousands of Christians and authors are about to read these books and, as stated, systematically dismember your old and haggard arguments.

Ohhhhhhh dismembered in time for Halloween. *shivers* Whose arguments are old and haggard? Why do I hear school yard children chanting, "I'm rubber and you're glue, whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you!"

In addition, everywhere I go and speak—be it in conferences, on the radio, on television or in print—I’m going to encourage the tens of thousands of Christians I address that every time and everywhere they get crapped on by an atheist with unfounded arguments to open their mouths and slam dance them with facts found in these two new brilliant books from Regnery.

Crapped on by atheists! Slam dance them. HA! Not with the tripe I've seen. Try again Regnery.

Tell the fat lady to sit back down on her humongous backside, false alarm!

As for you Doug Giles- you strike me as particulary exasperating, inconvenient and annoying. If only I knew of a short way to sum up that irritation, one simple easy word to convey my contempt for Doug Giles. That way I could say, “Doug Giles you are a xxxx”. I guess I will just have to reiterate that he is particularly exasperating, inconvenient and annoying. Doesn’t pack the emotional punch that I want it to have though. Rats.

53 comments:

Richard said...

NICE JOB, FIERY!

For those who doubt Fiery's connection between religion and communism:

"Call nothing your own, but let everything be yours in common, Food and clothing shall be distributed... according to each one's need."

[How will that stuff become available? Blank-out!]

St. Augustine (400 CE), preceding Karl Marx by 1500 years!

Marx:
To each according to his need, from each according to his ability

Commonality:
Their shared 'ideal': the morality of altruism... sacrifice those who make the world work to those who don't. No, wait, it's: "don't even think about those (the inventors, producers, distributors and marketers) who actually make the world work, just note that they have it". Then either guilt them with eternal damnation or kill them, to get the shoes, clothes and whatever else you are not able to offer any value in trade.

Note that both religion and communism specialize in indoctrination and mass misinformation.

Maggie Rosethorn said...

Go Fiery!

I'm eagerly awaiting Xmas, since I bought myself 2 presents...books by Hector Avalos that PZ Myers wrote about - "The End of Biblical Studies" and (oops...forget the other title...something about the bible and violence in history). Can't wait to read them, then I tell Hutch and D'Souza to Shut UP.

Tattooed & Atheist (T&A) said...

Giles is a smug little punk. You can see what this puke looks like over at http://www.clashradio.com/

So he's calling us "prissy anti-christ"?
I'd like to see him call me that to my face! This guy's arms are the size of a 10 year old girl! yet he's acting as if he's The Duke! Typical chicken-hawk fundie. They talk tough, but if they were faced with an atheist like Pat Tillman, they'd piss their pants!

I'm too pissed off about this to come up with anything cerebral at this point!

Fiery said...

lol I didn't know if I should thank you for complimenting my post, or apologize for exposing you to the fundy tripe. ;-)

How about both!

Oh- and T&A. I know how painful it is reading this crap. Blech! As for calling you prissy to your face, I imagine a fundy held up by the troat heels kicking ala Darth Vader, am I close? ;-)

Tattooed & Atheist (T&A) said...

Fiery,Thanks for posting it.
This prick's smugness got under my skin in a big way!
Anyone of us could refute this idiot's arguments. And you my dear did a great job!

Actually, I would hope that I wouldn't stoop to their level, and resort to violence. However the image of throttling this douche bag is comforting! :)

Fiery said...

T&A.
Agreed. There was nothing spectacular in his arguments. He seems to hold those books in such high regard.... blech... what a load of tripe.

I would have guessed you weren't the type to go beating on people. But I did get many moments of enjoyment imagining you as D.V. with that Giles xxxx* by the throat.



*being a euphemism for exasperating, inconvenient and annoying

Poodles said...

If a fundie ever called me that to my face around the hulk...It could get ugly.

But like I said at T&A's blog, he only looks scary, he is the nice one, I am the mean one.

Fiery said...

Your hulk has the eyes of a poet.
:-)

Thump Thump Eyes said...

Thanks Fiery, what a classic bunch of religious nutters.

These people are seriously warped, not only pulling 'facts' out of their bums, but publicly appearing to be strangely infantile and sooo stupidly nasty...I mean "suck for you thick atheists" ah name calling at its very best, "prissy anti christs" - woo hoo really good one...delusional comes to mind with a nasty taint...they must be getting very desperate...athiests abound!!

Joe said...

You did point out that the first thing the Christian needed to do was to buy something. And, that's what the issue is, selling something for profit. The Christian Way. Pull shit out of your ass and sell it.

Protium said...

My brain hurts...

Richard said...

AH HAH HAH rotflmao!

"pulling 'facts' out of their bums"

Nice one TTE!

The best part is that I picture the minister at my old Anglican church. I was his Altar Boy. So I can see him pulling up his fancy robes, dropping his pants, and the reaching around the back of his butt cheeks to pull out a string of beads, and each bead says fact1, fact2, plus fact3. Then the last butt bead says 1+2+3=8.

So it's a given that he headed for the pulpit, gave his sermon, and everyone bowed or kneeled, seriously, crossed themselves, and repeated to themselves that 1+2+3=8. Then when they went to their jobs as accountants, they completely, F__ked Up. Hah!

Yep, I was there, though I never saw the beads, I knew they were in there somewhere. Okay, that's gross, sorry. Anyway, it's actually not as bad as what they really do to people's brains! A butt doesn't think a whole lot, so they are not ruining much, but a brain is a whole other matter!

Fiery said...

TTE- I still am rather stunned the Giles fella decided to go with name calling and goofy slander. He didn't even take the time to come up with even vaguely accurate slurs. Putz.

Joe- you should see the size of the churches around Fargo, it is BIG BUSINESS that drives them. Lots of money and what a cushy job.

Protes- I'm sorry big brother, I should have put a warning at the top of the post. Would a kiss on the back of your head make it all better? :* *giggles*

Richard the mind shutters... it also shudders at the image raised by someone saying, "I was his Altar Boy". cursed catholics and their unnatural enforced celibacy. And his string of pearls with 1+2+3=8... *snerk* idiots. "god said it, I believe it, that settles it".

Richard said...

"God said it, I believe it, that settles it".

Yep. Wish I was God, I'd be one HECK of a lot nicer than that Jehovah Jerk.

Jehovah Jerk... is that masturbating God? Whoah!?, where did that come from.... maybe the 12 oz of Brandy I just downed over the last four hours :-)

Richard said...

!Snerk!

Of all the stuff I love about Fiery, her 'Snerk' is way up on the LIST. NOT the Snerk itself, but its application!

Sarcasm? She's got it.
Facetiousness? She's got it.
Appropriateness? No Bout Adout it.
Specific identification of flat-out BullShit Gang; don't even question it --she's fricken right and that's all there is to it.

Golb, Shut The Fuck Up; intellectually your thoughts make moss look smart.

******

Fiery's one awesome BloggerBabe. She's worth the Drive to Minnesota!
For me that's about 24 frickin' hours on the road! Hey Fiery, ken ya put me-up for the nicht or wud ya rathr me slept in me' Odyssey Van? Or, wait'l you see me, then decide.

This is about as audacious as my joking ever gets... it's the 12 oz of Brandy I tell you. Whhere's that damned 'h' key anyway?

******

I wonder if Reg Golb has admitted his intellectual fucking death, by joining the walkin' dead at other blogs. [Yep, I swore, for much needed f-ing em-FASS-is!] Yep, it's just emph-ASS-is.

Fiery said...

HOLY FAT SHIT HAT MAN!!!!!

Richard is hammered!!!!!

Wow. When, Richard, you tie one on you do it in SPADES!!!!!!!!!!!

WOO HOOO!!!!!!!!!!!

I feel like we've had a corrupting influence on you.

Welcome to the potty mouth club Richard, population us! It's liberating. *snerk*

Protium said...

ha ha. I want to see what happens at 16oz will we see the c word?

Good on ya Richard :)

OzAtheist said...

you might like this little picture, seems to explain his attitude nicely:

http://picasaweb.google.com/Jeffrey.Rodriguez/Funny/photo#5125751754869147282

OzAtheist said...

try that again, using tinyurl:

http://tinyurl.com/37gqyk

Richard said...

Ha HA HA !!!!!!
--BG--

(Use a snooty British accent while reading:)

Did I use such potty woeds? Shawly Not! Someone seems to have hijacked my account while I was Ayway. Oh Deah, I feah I may have tahnished my image somewhat. I'm quite shaw I felt I was among friends!

Thanks for the moral support Protium.... 16 oz??? Then I'd be well, hung, [BG]. I'm surprised Harry Nads hasn't weighed in.

Cule Pie-chart OzA! It reminds me of a parallel I use sometimes: If the Middle East Muslim countries were a football field, the area of Israel placed in one corner of that field would be the size of

***A BOOK OF PAPER MATCHES***.

That is how utterly insane & inane the Muslims, who are all worked up over Israel, really are.

Poodles said...

Lit Richard is funny!

mountain king said...

you still have not refuted that mao and stalin were atheists and that they were responsible for among the most horrible ddemocides of history

Mao himself also spoke at times against religion specifically, rather than merely in favour of his own brand of political ideology. Famously he stated that "religion is poison. It has two great defects: It undermines the race ...(and) retards the progress of the country." We see in this all the hallmarks of atheism joined with a fanatical dedication to eliminate its perceived opposition. After his annexation of Tibet (which has, to their shame, remained unopposed by western governments to this day) Mao openly endorsed the destruction of Tibetan cultural heritage, including Buddhist monasteries, in part as a campaign to eliminate "theocratic authority". It has been estimated that the number of Tibetan monasteries was reduced by the Chinese from some 2,500 to "only just over 70" in the period 1959-1961. The number of monks and nuns fell from 100,000 to just 7,000 in the same period. Hundreds of thousands have died as a result of the invasion and the suffering goes on today. And, it should be noted, Mao's attack on religion in China was equally forceful.

Stalin was also an atheist:

The Pope? How many divisions has he got?
— Josef Stalin, to French Foreign Minister Pierre Laval, in reply to a suggestion that the Soviet Union should encourage Catholicism in order to propitiate the Pope, in Winston Churchill, The Second World War, vol. 1, "The Gathering Storm," ch. 8, (1948), said, 13 May 1935, quoted from, The Columbia Dictionary of Quotations

Stalin is quoted as saying "You know, they are fooling us, there is no God...all this talk about God is sheer nonsense" in E. Yaroslavsky, Landmarks in the Life of Stalin, Foreign Languages Publishing House, Moscow 1940

mountain king said...

when i read Dawkins' challenge of finding a single case of specifically atheism-inspired violence, at least one instance does come to mind:

The year 1967 saw Enver Hoxha, Albania's leader, declared the country to be the world's first atheist state -- and proudly so. In fact, Hoxha decreed a ban on religion, religious names being given to newborns, ordered the demolishing of places of worship and imprisoned those found in possession of holy texts.

Needless to say, his human rights record drew widespread international condemnation. Critics of this example will attempt to tie it in with the communist ideology shackling eastern European states at the time, but it is clear that Hoxha was determined to carry out his anti-religious campaign specifically for atheism's sake.


who can deny that Stalin and Mao, Pol Pot and a host of others, all committed atrocities in the name of a Communist ideology that was explicitly atheistic? Who can dispute that they did their bloody deeds by claiming to be establishing a "new man" and a religion-free utopia? These were mass murders performed with atheism as a central part of their ideological inspiration, they were not mass murders done by people who simply happened to be atheist.

But of course how can a lack of belief motivate people to do bad?...One feels you are neglecting to acknowledge the subtle distinction between the absence of a belief in God, and the firm belief that God is absent. The former is a rather placid position which results from merely failing to be persuaded of the positive case for God. By contrast the latter is positively invested in the idea that God is non-existent, and it is this that presumably comes prior to the atheism-inspired atrocities


More than this, some call themselves overtly "anti-theist", which suggests an opposition to religion and possibly the determination to erradicate it to the fullest possible extent.

Poodles said...

Wasn't Stalin educated in an Orthodox seminary from 1894-1899? I think those years are correct. Perhaps he was an atheist, but he was educated in a religious institution, perhaps he learned how to react to the world there, and got some of his violent ideas there? Just a thought.

Fiery said...

Sam Harris said..."How many times are we going to have to counter the charge that Stalin, Hitler, and Pol Pot represent the endgame of atheism? I’ve got news for you, this meme is not going away. I argued against it in The End of Faith, and it was immediately thrown back at me in reviews of the book as though I had never mentioned it. So I tackled it again in the afterword to the paperback edition of The End of Faith; but this had no effect whatsoever; so at the risk of boring everyone, I brought it up again in Letter to a Christian Nation; and Richard did the same in The God Delusion; and Christopher took a mighty swing at it in God is Not Great. I can assure you that this bogus argument will be with us for as long as people label themselves “atheists.” And it really convinces religious people. It convinces moderates and liberals. It even convinces the occasional atheist. "

What do you want to hear mountain king? What is it you want said to convince you that a lack of religious belief does not necessarily lead to ultimate societal evil?

I sincerely doubt there is an end that you will accept to this argument. It devolves into "yes it does!" "No it doesn't!"

B-O-R-I-N-G!

So, mountain king, are you really reg golb or telmeimwrong(you're still wrong!) or are you yet a 4th fundy come to my blog?

Tattooed & Atheist (T&A) said...

Mountain King, yes these men were atheist. And yes they killed a lot of people. But don't you think that if the Catholic Church would have had access to the same weapons that these men had at their disposal, they wouldn't have wiped out most of Northern Europe and the England, during the reformation? Or what about the crusades? I bet they would have killed far more than these three did, adjusted for population growth.

Tattooed & Atheist (T&A) said...

'The English" is what I meant.. Oops!

Fiery said...

T&A... you came back and proofread your comment almost 2 hours later? COOL!

I doubt reg golb...I mean telmeimwrong(still wrong!)...dang it...I mean mountain king will be back.

Sorry about that, if you've seen one fundy, you've seen them all.

Good on ya for poppin' back! ;-)

Protium said...

Oh those bad atheists... bad bad atheists.

God wouldn't have anything to do with killing innocent people would he. Or his followers. no no no.....

*finds bible*
Lets look...
Genesis 7:23, Noah. 30,000,000 dead.
Exodus 9:25, 30,000 dead.
Ex.12:29-30, 500,000 first born dead.
Num.11:33, 10,000 dead (they complained about the food)
Num.16:49, 14,700 killed for complaining.
Num.25:9, 24,000 dead
Num.31:1-35, 90,000 dead (saved the virgins though)
Deuteronomy 3:3-6, 60,000 dead
Joshua 8:1-25, 12,000 dead
Judges 7:2-22, 8:10, 120,000 dead
1 Kings 20:28-29, 100,000 dead (bloody Syrians)
2 Chronicles 14:9-14, 1,000,000 dead (damn Ethiopians)

Oh I'm sick of this...

So Mountain Kunt... what's your point again?

Thump Thump Eyes said...

Oh Richard, I'm glad you liked my comment on facts from bums....your imagination went wild and I had to laugh at your story, I'm glad for you that when you were an altar boy you never actually saw the beads, because you just might have got the job of ugh well better not go there... hahaha...snerk (sorry fiery, i just had to borrow your snerk, so appropriate:)

Anyway, I've just been reading Doug Giles' bio, what a guy, read what some people are saying about him....
"Doug Giles' refreshing voice cuts through the moral fuzziness of our culture with great clarity and trenchant insight. Doug's candor, boldness, and verve in tackling controversial issues make his writings essential reading. His contagious humor provides a delicious icing on the cake."
- David Limbaugh Columnist & Author, Persecution...
(http://www.clashradio.com/bio.html)

and whew...I cant wait to read his next book....
‘Political Twerps, Cultural Jerks and Church Quirks'

it sounds like a real bum tickler to me...

Richard said...

I am so glad I checked this thread before bed.

I had a bummer of a weekend, then came home to find one of my best buds dead. A canary I named Jefferson four and half years ago, fell of his perch. He spent lots of time while I worked flying around my head, sitting amongst my orchids singing his cute little head off, or flying into the kitchen to see if salad was coming. I'm okay now, but it took a couple of hours to regain perspective. What do you do with a dead canary you care about? At least he lets me hold him now. (All right! All right! Yes, I've had a couple of ounces, but only about five! But really it's the irreverent humor of you guys that's helped the most. Special thanks to Fiery.)

So here I am, and Poodles made me smile (waves), T&A (I love that moniker as much as Harry Nads) cracked me up. Then Protium and TTE whaled in too. Nice job guys, I love it.

In my door, when I got home, was a Watchtower, opened to a page on why God should not be seen as a reason to give up on scientific investigation. WHAT! We are, then, supposed to engage in the arrogant task of figuring out how he's made the stuff around us? NO WAYY!!!! I left the Jehovah's Witness in two previous conversations pale, but the silly beggars (literally, cause that's what praying is about) keep returning with the idea that I will become a door thumper for Christ.

I'm putting up a sign:
God Lives Here
If you believe, kneel and
pray you don't tick me off
.

The writing style of this new fundy seems a bit different from Reg Glob, so it's either a new persona attempt or a different guy.

"Mountain King"??!!!!...
OH PULLL-EEEZ!.
That, I suppose, would be the Mount of Olives, the Sermon on the Mount, and all that related fundy pooh. If it looks like pooh, feels like pooh, and tastes like pooh, IT'S POOH! And if you swallow it, well, you are what you eat!!!!!

Poodles stop that!

Richard said...

Go to this web page.

It's part of a pretty funny series that you may want to explore. In this episode, God (with the bluetooth earpiece for his cell phone) is struggling to give Dubya directions for dealing with Iraq. I could spend time with hi assistant, but I think she goes for the all powerful type.

The full URL
http://crackle.com/play/#id=2056785&ml=fpl%3D68726%26fx%3D%26o%3D12

If you click on "Shows" you can see how God made the Universe (Holocausts are to be allowed, torture?, "Okay", Down's Syndrome "It's so sad, Yah Let's leave it in etc.), how he twisted Jeebus (handsome actor ladies) into the crucifixion stint.

I forget who, but someone wanted to see more stuff making fun of religion. This stuff you can watch like you might have watched Seinfeld.

"I'll assume you'll have no problem with cancer."

Poodles said...

Richard:
What? *sheepish* I promise no "you are what you eat" jokes...I swear...

Fiery said...

Seen on a t-shirt...
"Prepare for Armageddon,
Jesus is coming again.
Do you swallow that?

Protium said...

Richard. Mr Deity is one of the best satires I've seen.

OK... Where's the fundy?

mountain king said...

WOW. I sure got alot of responses, i hope im not irritating you too much. But im going to reply to each of your comments


quote from POODLES:
"Wasn't Stalin educated in an Orthodox seminary from 1894-1899? I think those years are correct. Perhaps he was an atheist, but he was educated in a religious institution, perhaps he learned how to react to the world there, and got some of his violent ideas there? Just a thought."
interesting thought, however later on he admired the work of marx and went on to meet lenin. He imagined lenin would be a giant but he was very disappointed
Regardless, he was still an atheist who disagreed with much of what his deeply religious mother taught him

quote from FIERY:
"What do you want to hear mountain king? What is it you want said to convince you that a lack of religious belief does not necessarily lead to ultimate societal evil?"
a couple of things:
1) these acts were not done in the name of atheism and they were not infact motivated by anti-theism, not even enver hoxha
2) if these atrocities can then be blamed on communism(or any irrational belief) or whatever control variable you agree on, explain why this cannot be used on say...the witch trials
3) perhaps there were others in the 20th century who were infact not atheists. I hear tons of claims saying King Leopold II’s Congolese genocide was an atheistic exercise (however this apparently ignores the Catholicism of the Belgian monarchy, doesn't it?, was leopold the second a catholic?). This site for example: vjocys.blogspot.com has an interesting theory that stalin was actually a theist
mainly the ones i hear about are stalin and mao but there are others that bother me, perhaps you could prove they weren't atheists and explain what their motivations were:
Kublai Khan during 1252–1279 who killed 19,000,000 people(he was a buddhist)
Empress Dowager Cixi during 1859-64 of the Tai Ping Rebellion hat murdered 12,000,000 people
Leopold II of Belgium during 1885–1908 who killed 10,000,000 people
Vladimir Lenin among the founders of communism that killed 4,000,000 people
Pol Pot during 1968–1987 who killed 2,000,000 people

And yes...i accept the fact that hitler was infact a roman catholic so i won't list him here


"So, mountain king, are you really reg golb or telmeimwrong(you're still wrong!) or are you yet a 4th fundy come to my blog?"
Well im sorry that i sound like a fundementalist but i do see evidence that atheists tend to be a little violent, japan for example is among the top 10 atheistic countries yet it was very violent during WW2

quoe from TATTOOED & ATHEIST (T&A):
"Mountain King, yes these men were atheist. And yes they killed a lot of people. But don't you think that if the Catholic Church would have had access to the same weapons that these men had at their disposal, they wouldn't have wiped out most of Northern Europe and the England, during the reformation? Or what about the crusades? I bet they would have killed far more than these three did, adjusted for population growth."
A representative of the American Humanist Association noted that population levels were much lower during the Inquisition than, say, the period of Stalin’s or Mao’s purges. And our humanist friend also noted that the technology of homicide is much more lethal in an era of weapons of mass destruction. Never mind that Stalin and Mao didn’t use any of those weapons. They relied on primitive techniques of murder, such as forced relocation, forced labor, and forced starvation. Besides, the caveats of our humanist colleague hardly change the overall calculus. The best estimates are that between 50,000 and 100,000 were killed in the Spanish Inquisition. That’s compared with 100 million who were killed in the atheist purges of the twentieth century. using this conservative estimate, a quick calculation reveals that atheist regimes killed thousand times more people in the space of a few decades than the Spanish Inquisition managed to kill over a period of more than two centuries.


quote from PROTIUM
"God wouldn't have anything to do with killing innocent people would he. Or his followers. no no no....."
Although your verses did bring a very good point this is a red herring
"So Mountain Kunt... what's your point again?"
you know what this reminds me of?...the youtube atheist drama, im not sure of wether you actually go to youtube often though

Tattooed & Atheist (T&A) said...

Somehow I missed that the first time! :(

I think I was influenced by that beauty queen's reference to "The Iraq" :)

Richard: Sorry to hear about your friend Jefferson. :(
Mountain of Shite is more in line with my thinking!

Fiery said...

Mountain King, I was wondering about your identity as you appeared from nowhere with a freshly created blog identity just for my blog. I was first to look at it. Seemed like a coincidence since reg golb has recently dried up over here. Yet... the writing style, as Richard says, is different. I allow that you exist as your own seperate person from him. ;-)

Historical figures and their motivations.

Atheism is not a motivation, it is not a political stance, it is not a system of morality, it is not a code of ethics. Atheism does not determine the value you place on human life, it does not dictate your sexual lifestyle. Atheism imparts only one bit of knowledge: there is no god.

Everything after that is up to the personal philosophical beliefs held by that person.

To point to various historical figures and say "the ultimate and defining link between these people is their lack of belief in god" is disingenuous. Not to mention irrelevant.

You have listed political figures who killed people by the millions for political reasons: power, control, to instill fear, population control, pleasure. But none of those reasons come with a comma and the addition "oh and I also don't believe in god".

I would recommend digging deeper into these historical figures for real motivation and not stop with "atheism" it's an easy out and offers no genuine understanding of the situation.

Tattooed & Atheist (T&A) said...

"The best estimates are that between 50,000 and 100,000 were killed in the Spanish Inquisition."

Again, I say that if the inquisition and the rest of Catholic Europe would have had access to modern weapons those numbers would have been more in lie with the numbers of Stalin et al.

Purges were indeed a method, however do think millions would have so easily given in to men with swords and longbows? These people were forced to relocate to work farms etc., under the threat of machine gun fire. As far as the starvation techniques, I assume you are referring to the practice of collectivism. As others have pointed out, this nothing to do with Stalin's atheism, and everything to do with the ideology of communism.

My next question is this: How do you counter the genocide that occurred in the New World after so called Christians came here? It has been estimated that perhaps 100,000,000 people lived in the Western Hemisphere when Columbus arrived, and within a mere hundred years, the population would decline by 70% or more.

Sure disease played a part in that. But the hand of European Christians with the blessing of the Pope, played a big part by using the same methods you attached to Stalin etc.. Forced relocation, starvation, slavery, murder.

We can go tit for tat over this MK, I think you'd be best to move along. You aren't changing any minds here, nor are we changing yours. Go to a fundie blog where they'll agree with your inane arguments.

mountain king said...

quoting FIERY
"Mountain King, I was wondering about your identity as you appeared from nowhere with a freshly created blog identity just for my blog"
actually it wasn't just for your blog, i were on other blogs too like the one trying to debunke the "scientific foreknowledge in the bible" argument. Currently it's under the "arguments that we think creationists should not use" at answersingenesis

"Historical figures and their motivations. "
Stalin oppossed Darwin's theory in favor of Trofim Lysenko's Lamarckian based idea. Leopold II based his actions on European colonialism. Mao and Pol Pot based themselves on the idea of class struggle. Hitler based his views on anti-semitism, im not too sure about the others though, however i think atheism did play a little part in their lives

"Atheism is not a motivation, it is not a political stance, it is not a system of morality, it is not a code of ethics. Atheism does not determine the value you place on human life, it does not dictate your sexual lifestyle. Atheism imparts only one bit of knowledge: there is no god."
acceptable. So then lets say some guy worships zeus and wants to follow the teachings of dionysus, now there is something that could help humans like say...norman borlaug's experiment, yet because it contradicts the teachings of dionysus. Now of course the atheist would oppose this, so his lack of belief had an effect. If dionysus teachings are true then norman's borlaug experiment is bad, if dionysus was wrong then norman's borlaug experiment is good and can save millions of lives. So then because of this dilema an anti-theism would develop and the religious people would try to stop norman, anti-theism is a conscious and deliberate opposition to theism. Many atheists are also anti-theists, but not all. However this "there is no god" motivated them to support norman. In this way atheism could inspire actions and code of ethics, get what im saying?
If a person is an anti-theist, then they will likely be anti-theists who work against theism by arguing that it be abandoned, promoting alternatives, or perhaps even supporting measures to suppress it.

"Everything after that is up to the personal philosophical beliefs held by that person. "
then again, why can't i blame let's say..Hitler for what he did not because of christianity but because of anti-semitism. Remember, Jesus said to put down the sword when Peter was going to kill the soldiers--it is not religion that drives people to kill, it is the abuse of religion.

"You have listed political figures who killed people by the millions for political reasons: power, control, to instill fear, population control, pleasure. But none of those reasons come with a comma and the addition "oh and I also don't believe in god"."
mao did destroy churches and put his image instead of other religious images, although atheism was not his main reason. If he wasn't an atheist this would be very unlikely, and for some reason you talk as if mao was religious
a lot of people killed because they were Christian, but not simply because they were Christian. Communists typically regarded religious organizations as a hinderance towards the creation of a worker's paradise. Some religious groups also opposed the communists. In that sense then yes, they did kill for political reasons



quotes from TATTOOED & ATHEIST (T&A):
"Purges were indeed a method, however do think millions would have so easily given in to men with swords and longbows?"
during the Shi Rebellion of China from 756 to 763 (9 years) 33 million people were killed. This rivals stalin's atrocities


"As others have pointed out, this nothing to do with Stalin's atheism, and everything to do with the ideology of communism. "
how exactly does communism relate to collectivism?

"How do you counter the genocide that occurred in the New World after so called Christians came here? It has been estimated that perhaps 100,000,000 people lived in the Western Hemisphere when Columbus arrived, and within a mere hundred years, the population would decline by 70% or more."
I don't know, im quite astonished by the number you gave me. According to my information, the most deadly christian atrocity was the inquisition which killed about 50 million people: http://www.cs.unc.edu/~plaisted/estimates.doc

"it has been estimated by careful and reputed historians of the Catholic Inquisition that 50 million people were slaughtered for the crime of "heresy" by Roman persecutors between the A.D. 606 and the middle of the 19th century"

Regardless. could you please give me more information about what you talked about?, it's hard to comment when i don't know what im talking about


"We can go tit for tat over this MK, I think you'd be best to move along. You aren't changing any minds here, nor are we changing yours. Go to a fundie blog where they'll agree with your inane arguments."
If ill motivate you to think that not all theists are bad then that would be good enough for me, infact i think atheists are sometimes even more spiritual than theists at times
Carl Sagan said:
"How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, 'This is much better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander more subtle, more elegant? Instead they say, 'No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way.' A religion, old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the Universe as revealed by modern science might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths."
Even today i still don't understand exactly what he means by that, the bible does glorify god for his greatness on alot of occasions

Johnny said...

You do not understand Atheism at all king of the hill!! Atheism is not a belief system like religion! Atheism is simply the non belief in any deity or god....Some atheists believe in gohsts but not god, some atheists believe in "karma" or "universal justice" but not god some atheists believe that there is nothing supernatural at all. Some atheists are rasist and want to murder people for that reason (most atheists are not like this however) my point is some people are mad and use good ideas for bad and wrong purposes. YOU should be trying to use the same argument to refute atheist claims that religion (or yours at any rate) is the basis of wars and genocide (after all Hitler was NOT an atheist). And I would say the diference is there is no unifying manifesto for being an atheist is there...all you have to do to be one is NOT BELIEVE IN GOD!
Unlike most of you religionists who are "constained" in your thinking because you have a specific code to live by. So you have to believe the "teachings" don't you. Women aren't equal, homosexuality is an evil sin, violence is ok against the "right" people shit our countries are in a war because your president has "spoken" with god!?!?And fundies like you agree with him!! For fuck's sake and you're complaining about atheists!!!
Now if your a whole bible goer old and new well there is lots in the old testament that, doesn't need interpretation it is straight up obvious what he who must not be named (can't remember weather its voldemort or yahweh or should that be vldmrt or yhwh) thinks, violent jealous bastard!!

According to your logic king of the mound, christianity also leads to child molestation after all, all these men are christian clergy whom have been charged with child sex offences- Tarcisio Tadeu Spricigo
Edward French
Frantisek Merta
Ronald Bennett
Patrick Colleary
Donal Collins
Sean Fortune
Paul McGennis
Vincent Mercer
Thomas Naughton
Ivan Payne
Oliver O'Grady
Noel Reynolds
Brendan Smyth
Bernard McGrath
Edmund Cotter
Brendan Smyth
John Geoghan
Patrick Colleary
Gerald connelly
Dale Fushek
James Gonsalves
Donalds Kimball
Oliver O'grady
Alan Placa
Paul Shanley
Brendan Smyth
Just a few more than the one or two atheist names you've bandied about huh? What's the bet there are a lot more too? Individuals can do fucked up shit huh? Even worse when they say they follow an all loving god!!

Tattooed & Atheist (T&A) said...

Mountain King: I don't think anyone here has said that all theist are bad, certainly not myself. I'm glad you can recognize that atheist have the ability to be spiritual or just plane decent human beings. I do take issue with fundamentalist of ANY belief (or in my case lack of belief) system. I respect your right to hold a belief in a higher power, but please respect my lack of belief. This is the crux of most atheist anger.

Thump Thump Eyes said...

Richard
So sorry to hear about your little bud Jefferson...canaries are so sweet, you need to get another one to keep you company....and you better stop drinking all that brandy, and letting your inhibitions run free:-D

We have a wonderful dog friend that rules the roost around here, and we would be devastated if/when he fell/falls off the perch....:(

Dr Deity is the funniest send up of god that i have ever seen!!!Thanks for posting the link.

Mounting Kings.
Come on, all those deaths that Protium pointed out must be true, they're in the bible.

As for this...
"One feels you are neglecting to acknowledge the subtle distinction between the absence of a belief in God, and the firm belief that God is absent".

As soon as god pops in to see us then we'll all know which god he is (out of the many). Until then I dont see the point in discussing your dribble any further.

Richard said...

Oh Oh, I think I am feeling a FISKal responsibility. Unravelling the dog's breakfast of ideas that he offers is just too much. I'm not "going long" on this one again.

Responding to Mountain Kings accusation that Stalin was an atheist; and his saying you still have not refuted that mao and stalin were atheists and that they were responsible for among the most horrible ddemocides of history:

1. Lots of Christians don't murder thousands or millions, some do. Same with those who fit your idea of atheism. Some do but a great many don't, so the generalization cannot be made.
2. Religion and Communism are two similar forms of Subjectivism..."I want it this way, because I feel it! The only difference is that the first sets up various rules by which the individual sacrifices himself to a single mystical being called a god, while the second sets up various rules whereby the individual sacrifices himself to a multiple mystical notion called the Collective. (Consider the popular idea of Collective Consciousness among the atheistic Left.) Basically the Communists are no less religious than the Judeo-Islamo-Christians.
3. Stalin is AN example of an atheist, but clearly does not epitomize all atheists. Fiery makes that clear. Using Stalin as an argument constitutes the Fallacy of Re-definition: Stalin is an atheist, so that is what an atheist is.

The matter you raise is not just a matter of disbelief in a mystical God, but in fundamentally irrational systems of 'thought' applied to politics and culture.

Personally I found your wording up to the point about witch trials to be incoherent. The witch trials were as irrational as attacking the Bourgeoisie, what's your point?

****
but i do see evidence that atheists tend to be a little violent, japan for example is among the top 10 atheistic countries yet it was very violent during WW2

The Japanese worshiped their emperor as a god... they were in fact deeply religious about it. It was not, NOT, atheism in any way shape or form. It was another form of mindless mystical worship of a deity defined in a different manner from what Western Culture usually considers a deity to be.

***

Enver Hoxha was a third kind of Subjectivism that sacrifices the individual to himself. This is characteristic of most dictators, no matter the particular details of their methods. Again, he may have been atheist, but like your argument concerning Stalin, the issue runs deeper than just saying there is no God. The distinction is important. For example both Ghandi and Mohammed were religious, but one was a pacifist, the other a killer.

***
A representative of the American Humanist Association... Humanism is another variation on Collectivism, and no more rational.

***

Re Stalin, and Marx: Hegel was initially very religious, but failing to prove God to himself, he decided Truth actually lay in the Collective. He merely changed the nature of his mystical being. Marx was Hegel's student and turned the belief into a political system, with all the absurd notions of a future Utopia. Stalin et al. made many attempts at achieving Utopia through Five Year Plans. The promise of Heaven was always there, just as the religious believe in the blatant contradiction that is life after death.

***
The former is a rather placid position which results from merely failing to be persuaded of the positive case for God. By contrast the latter is positively invested in the idea that God is non-existent, and it is this that presumably comes prior to the atheism-inspired atrocities

This is nonsense. Many on this blog are both anti-theist in the extreme AND anti-coercion in the extreme. Technically, in logic, you are arguing in non-essentials. Each new non-essential leading-to-violence is taken to represent --or implicitly define-- the concept of atheism, and you then try to show that atheism is itself a major cause of atrocities. In effect this approach amounts to recurrent application of Straw Man arguments.

***

Hitler based his views on anti-semitism. This is not correct. Hitler was a socialist Collectivist first and his ideal collective was Aryan. The Jews and his hatred of them were hardly the motivation for his invasions of Poland, Czechoslovakia, Austria etc.

***

however this "there is no god" motivated them to support norman. In this way atheism could inspire actions and code of ethics, get what im saying?
Sorry, but this is utter bunk from non-essentials: i.e. brutal rationalization. I don't think it worth debating such arbitrary attachment of importance to a fantasy scenario.

anti-theism has no tendency to violence and atrocity. There are more essential causes of them, as listed above.

***

it is not religion that drives people to kill, it is the abuse of religion. This statement is despicably dishonest, period. There are literally thousands of direct applications of religion that drive people to kill, maim and mutilate, even their own children. You can't not know that.

***

Aside from the non-essential of Mao knocking down churches as some kind of evidence of his atheistic views (What did Muslims do to Christian churches? --killed everyone inside and wrecked the churches, of course.)
"Communists typically regarded religious organizations as a hinderance [sic] towards the creation of a worker's paradise.
Hitler's first political enemies were the Communists, because they were competing with him for the same turf. It's the same with Mao --whether collectivism or religion or some mongrel combination, the most threatening opponents must be squashed.

***

how exactly does communism relate to collectivism? Are you serious or are you being dishonest again? The definitions of the two terms answer that question quite adequately. The evidence of history is overwhelming, and ought to be as comprehensible to anyone who reads a newspaper as it should be to any high school graduate who took history courses. Take responsibility for the meanings of your own terms. Words have exact meanings.

***

By Jeebus Johnny, that was a great rant. MHOTY!

***

Atheism is a very loose term, as several of the regular contributers explain. I am an atheist, and consider theism (religion) to be one of the two greatest evils perpetrated on the mind and body of man. Its 20th Century equivalent has been, and still is, Collectivism. With the modern methods of communication, travel and warfare, it has rapidly matched theism in bloodshed, unhappiness and reduction in progress.

More properly, I consider Mysticism to be the fundamental evil from which BOTH theism and collectivism are spawned. A third form I mentioned is dictatorships. Together, these forms amount to abject subjectivism and regular denial of reason. Atheism does not in any way mean reason is a substitute for God. So, plenty of atheists can be collectivists or dictators or some combination. (Now we have Environmentalists who are a combination of mysticism and collectivism.)

If you explore other comments on AtheistHomeschooler, you will find a great many excellent, at times vituperous, arguments that are actually better points than those by the likes of Hitchens and Dawkins. Unfortunately, due to the nature of blogs and their comments, there is no distinct structure for learning in a steady and rationally incremental manner.

Ultimately, suggesting atheism is a cause of violence or atrocities, is no better than suggesting that brown shirts caused WW2. Hitler's Brown Shirts, and all the other leaders of genocide were motivated by something deeper, as were the Inquisitors.

mountain king said...

"Women aren't equal"
prove it!

"homosexuality is an evil sin"
it is, but that's a different story and my commnt will be long enough

"violence is ok against the "right" people"
Again, Jesus said to put down the sword when Peter was going to kill the soldiers, jesus never advocated sheer violence he came here to being peace

"shit our countries are in a war because your president has "spoken" with god!?!?"
Really?, when did he say he spoke with God?. Regardless, george bush violent actions has nothing to do with religion, but for oil...it's an open secret

"And fundies like you agree with him!! For fuck's sake and you're complaining about atheists!!!"
i prefer to live under Bush than under stalin. There is a home for atheists, it's called north korea, but not many ar willing to go there



"christianity also leads to child molestation after all, all these men are christian clergy whom have been charged with child sex offences- Tarcisio Tadeu Spricigo
Edward French
Frantisek Merta
Ronald Bennett
Patrick Colleary
Donal Collins
Sean Fortune
Paul McGennis
Vincent Mercer
Thomas Naughton
Ivan Payne
Oliver O'Grady
Noel Reynolds
Brendan Smyth
Bernard McGrath
Edmund Cotter
Brendan Smyth
John Geoghan
Patrick Colleary
Gerald connelly
Dale Fushek
James Gonsalves
Donalds Kimball
Oliver O'grady
Alan Placa
Paul Shanley
Brendan Smyth
Just a few more than the one or two atheist names you've bandied about huh? What's the bet there are a lot more too? Individuals can do fucked up shit huh? Even worse when they say they follow an all loving god!!"
Jesus never taught anything about child molestation, a christian is someone who follows christs teachings. This doesn't sound like a christian to me at all

Jesus Himself addressed the issue of "Christians," performing evil deeds in a rather chilling prophecy:

"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'" (Matthew 7:22-23)

One should note that Jesus said that "many" people who think they are His followers will be rejected by Jesus when at the judgment when they attempt to claim that they are His disciples. Not all who claim the name of Jesus are actually His disciples. My guess is that in even the best of Christian churches only about half of the people have been truly born again (see John chapter 3). Christianity should be judged on the basis of what Jesus said and did, not on the basis of the actions of people who merely claim to be Christians. Foxe's Book of Martyrs details the deaths of Christians who were killed because of their faith in Christ, in many cases by people claiming to be Christians.

We cannot know for certain whether a person is or is not a true Christian (only God can makes such a determination). However, the Bible describes the nature of a person who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit

(which happens at the point a person accept Jesus as Lord and Savior):

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. (Galatians 5:22-23)

In addition, the true believer does what is right and demonstrates love toward others Even non-believers can readily see who the true Christians are. Ultimately, the behavior of those who claim to be Christians but practice evil should not be a consideration in determining if the claims of Christ are true or not.




"Come on, all those deaths that Protium pointed out must be true, they're in the bible."
This has not only proceeded to become a red herring, but even an argument by outrage

"As soon as god pops in to see us then we'll all know which god he is (out of the many). Until then I dont see the point in discussing your dribble any further."
this is another red herring and will give me a really hard time explaining it to you, but ill answer it just for the heck of it:
No other religion provides a provision for God's forgiveness of sin, which is why I believe Christianity to be the only true way to God. Jesus said He is the only way to God and that all people must follow Him to enter heaven. All other religions are man's attempt to become acceptable to God. Only Christianity says that God alone provides the only means to be acceptable to Him. So, either Christianity is true and all other religions are false or Christianity is false and God does not hold people accountable for law breaking. Personally, I would not want to rely upon God ignoring His own rules. It doesn't seem to be logical reasoning. This is the choice you must make.

So, I encourage you to examine the world religions to see if what I am saying is true. Don't give up on the ability to separate the truth claims of the world's religions. If Christianity is true, you must make a choice or you will be judged on the basis of your sins against God.




"Personally I found your wording up to the point about witch trials to be incoherent. The witch trials were as irrational as attacking the Bourgeoisie, what's your point?"
i might as well claim that such crimes that were commited by christians were also commited because of having irrational beliefs'



"The Japanese worshiped their emperor as a god... they were in fact deeply religious about it. It was not, NOT, atheism in any way shape or form. It was another form of mindless mystical worship of a deity defined in a different manner from what Western Culture usually considers a deity to be."
Do you think the japanese are stupid or something?, what do you mean they worshipped him as a god?. What do you mean by "mindless mystical worship of a deity"?, does that relate to shintoism or something




"Enver Hoxha was a third kind of Subjectivism that sacrifices the individual to himself. This is characteristic of most dictators, no matter the particular details of their methods. Again, he may have been atheist"
interesting, so you actually think enver hoxha might not have been an atheist?, how about stalin and mao?, were they atheists?

here's what happened when stalin readed darwin:
"I began to speak of God, Joseph heard me out, and after a moment's silence, said:
'YOU KNOW, THEY ARE FOOLING US, THERE IS NO GOD. . . .'
I was astonished at these words, I had never heard anything like it before.
'How can you say such things, Soso?' I exclaimed.
'I'll lend you a book to read; it will show you that the world and all living things are quite different from what you imagine, and ALL THIS TALK ABOUT GOD IS SHEER NONSENSE,' Joseph said.
'What book is that?' I enquired.
'Darwin. You must read it,' Joseph impressed on me." G. Glurdjidze in The Life of Joseph Stalin (1940) p.8-9

Wikipedia even lists him as an atheist and uses this specific quote to prove it


"Re Stalin, and Marx: Hegel was initially very religious, but failing to prove God to himself, he decided Truth actually lay in the Collective. He merely changed the nature of his mystical being. Marx was Hegel's student and turned the belief into a political system, with all the absurd notions of a future Utopia. Stalin et al. made many attempts at achieving Utopia through Five Year Plans. The promise of Heaven was always there, just as the religious believe in the blatant contradiction that is life after death. "
unless you'll prove this belief of theirs must motivate anti-theism such as enver hoxha, this doesn't prove much


"Sorry, but this is utter bunk from non-essentials: i.e. brutal rationalization. I don't think it worth debating such arbitrary attachment of importance to a fantasy scenario."
are you then saying that you don't support stem cell research that could save thousands and perhaps millions of lives?, do you not wish christian fundementalists would stop shooting abortion doctors?, don't you wish that they would stop doing all these things like kent hovind who keeps telling his lies and innocent(and very ignorant) christians believe him?, don't you wish the creationists would stop preaching their religion in schools and that america would stop being republican so that at last evolution can be taught properly?. Don't you wish you could solve all of this by simply removing such ideas out of your country?. If you were a christian do you really think you'd support stem cell research?...almost certainly NO, the people who support it are mostly materialists


"This statement is despicably dishonest, period. There are literally thousands of direct applications of religion that drive people to kill, maim and mutilate, even their own children. You can't not know that."
well yes, christians do that mainly because they are scared their child would go to hell and wish the best for him. But i haven't heared of any paticular violent act commited by such christians


"Aside from the non-essential of Mao knocking down churches as some kind of evidence of his atheistic views (What did Muslims do to Christian churches? --killed everyone inside and wrecked the churches, of course.)"
Mao himself also spoke at times against religion specifically, rather than merely in favour of his own brand of political ideology. Famously he stated that "RELIGION IS POISON. It has two great defects: It undermines the race ...(and) retards the progress of the country." We see in this all the hallmarks of atheism joined with a fanatical dedication to eliminate its perceived opposition. After his annexation of Tibet (which has, to their shame, remained unopposed by western governments to this day) Mao openly endorsed the destruction of Tibetan cultural heritage, including Buddhist monasteries, in part as a campaign to eliminate "theocratic authority". It has been estimated that the number of Tibetan monasteries was reduced by the Chinese from some 2,500 to "only just over 70" in the period 1959-1961. The number of monks and nuns fell from 100,000 to just 7,000 in the same period. Hundreds of thousands have died as a result of the invasion and the suffering goes on today. And, it should be noted, Mao's attack on religion in China was equally forceful.
If that's not an atheist i don't know what is....

I assure you that Stalin and Mao followed Dialectical Materialism, an inherently materialist philosophy, in which you cannot possibly be religious

I think you need to read Stalin's works on dialectical materialism, they're probably on Marxists.org in the 'Non-Communist Writers' section.

to make such incredulous historical statements would not only undermine the credibility of historians, but would be a sign that they are unable to correctly analyse primary and secondary historical sources.


"Atheism is a very loose term, as several of the regular contributers explain. I am an atheist, and consider theism (religion) to be one of the two greatest evils perpetrated on the mind and body of man. Its 20th Century equivalent has been, and still is, Collectivism. With the modern methods of communication, travel and warfare, it has rapidly matched theism in bloodshed, unhappiness and reduction in progress. "
the inquisition, crusades, witch trials combined barely reach 60 million and they had a long history. Communism has killed 120 million people, double the number christianity killed. Besides, what recent event was so horrible that killed millions of people like this?...it probably wasn't inspired by christianity

Johnny said...

"Women aren't equal"
prove it!
No contoversy over ordained women?
"homosexuality is an evil sin"
it is, but that's a different story and my commnt will be long enough
Filthy bigot
jesus never advocated sheer violence Sheer as opposed to veiled violence?
when did he say he spoke with God?. You saying he doesn't pray?
i prefer to live under Bush than under stalin. There is a home for atheists, it's called north korea, but not many ar willing to go there Ha another fool who doesn't understan what an atheist is. There is a home for atheists all right dickhead it's called my house and any other place where atheists live...you haven't read a word of what anybody's written have you! Do you think we want to take over the state and kill all religionists? Some people are mad and power mad and atheist at the same time.
Jesus never taught anything about child molestation, a christian is someone who follows christs teachings. This doesn't sound like a christian to me at all So how is it that they are christian then moreover they are clergymen? oh you are about to tell me with this sermonising dibble
Jesus Himself addressed the issue of "Christians," performing evil deeds in a rather chilling prophecy:

"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'" (Matthew 7:22-23)

One should note that Jesus said that "many" people who think they are His followers will be rejected by Jesus when at the judgment when they attempt to claim that they are His disciples. Not all who claim the name of Jesus are actually His disciples. My guess is that in even the best of Christian churches only about half of the people have been truly born again (see John chapter 3). Christianity should be judged on the basis of what Jesus said and did, not on the basis of the actions of people who merely claim to be Christians. Foxe's Book of Martyrs details the deaths of Christians who were killed because of their faith in Christ, in many cases by people claiming to be Christians.
And when did jesus say this? How do you know? Oh of course silly me the bable yes based in truth that lovely little tome...what yea was that really cool flood again? You know the one that completely immersed the entire earth in water! hmmm I wonder where that water went? Oh maybe your talking about the new testament oh well that is a completely beleivable book then isn't it? What with that virgin chick somehow getting up the duff oh and that dude what did you say his name was???mmmm oh yea jesus... man he could bring people back to life huh even himself wow. All that shit above is not from anything but a mishmash of crap written by men over time and is completely contradictory!
PREACH somewhere else you fuckstick preaching, dickhead, is not rational and certainly quoting tripe from the bable is a pure joke!!
In addition, the true believer does what is right and demonstrates love toward others Even non-believers can readily see who the true Christians are. Ultimately, the behavior of those who claim to be Christians but practice evil should not be a consideration in determining if the claims of Christ are true or not. How much love you giving to practicing homosexuals?..how much love is your god giving to practicing homosexuals or even to people who simply don't believe or the child molesting priests?...god doesn't love all people god casts some of us into hideous eternal pain and damnation what is all loving and compassionate about that...fucking sick is what I call it and anyone who adheres to it is really rather monstrous in my opinion especially when they are preaching that shit like you are. Totally despicable.
"Come on, all those deaths that Protium pointed out must be true, they're in the bible."
This has not only proceeded to become a red herring, but even an argument by outrage
Outrage! Damn straight!!
If Christianity is true, you must make a choice or you will be judged on the basis of your sins against God. Of course it's not true and dude we've made our "choice" Fuck off and preach somewhere else we have heard all this before!! It's really rather tiresome.
No other religion provides a provision for God's forgiveness of sin, which is why I believe Christianity to be the only true way to God. What a ridiculous god even inventing sin!! Is there sin in your heaven? If not why not just create heaven? Why must there be a dichotomy good/sin god/devil heaven/hell just does not logically follow?
well yes, christians do that mainly because they are scared their child would go to hell and wish the best for him. But i haven't heared of any paticular violent act commited by such christians Christians are scared you got that right that's why there are christians! Fear of the unknown!
Mao himself also spoke at times against religion specifically, rather than merely in favour of his own brand of political ideology. Famously he stated that "RELIGION IS POISON. It has two great defects: It undermines the race ...(and) retards the progress of the country" We see in this all the hallmarks of atheism joined with a fanatical dedication to eliminate its perceived opposition. That says alot about the person and not much about atheism which is only THE NON BELIEF IN GOD!
"Personally I found your wording up to the point about witch trials to be incoherent. The witch trials were as irrational as attacking the Bourgeoisie, what's your point?"
i might as well claim that such crimes that were commited by christians were also commited because of having irrational beliefs'
Christianity IS an irrational belief.
the inquisition, crusades, witch trials combined barely reach 60 million and they had a long history. Communism has killed 120 million people, double the number christianity killed. Besides, what recent event was so horrible that killed millions of people like this?...it probably wasn't inspired by christianity How many jews were murdered in the holocaust?

Richard said...

Yes Mountain King:
Do you think the japanese are stupid or something?, what do you mean they worshipped him as a god?. What do you mean by "mindless mystical worship of a deity"?

The belief in the Japanese Emperor, as a God, were as stupid as your belief in a god for which there is even less evidence. Your Biblical quotations only add to that stupidity.

interesting, so you actually think enver hoxha [sic] might not have been an atheist? Good grief, how can you draw such an unrelated idea from that comment? You make Reg Glob look like the sharpest knife in the drawer. Talk about a non sequitur, sheesh!

As for Stalin, I made it pretty clear that his belief system replaced God with The People. That is was a chain of argument arising from Hegel and passing through Marx. It is not that they said as much. However, if one grasps the principles they speak, to it is evident. Sure, Stalin was an atheist, but more importantly he was a subjectivist, like all believers who fail to use reason effectively. There is no such higher power as The People or Jehovah. Those who think there is fail to examine that unreality and are intellectually dishonest.

"I assure you that Stalin and Mao followed Dialectical Materialism, an inherently materialist philosophy, in which you cannot possibly be religious. I have explained this twice, why should I repeat it for a third time?

to make such incredulous historical statements would not only undermine the credibility of historians, but would be a sign that they are unable to correctly analyse primary and secondary historical sources. Yes. Most historians are not qualified to analyze historical events because they have no grasp of philosophical principles. Philosophy drives history, and they still have not grasped that philosophy is a science --but then nor have most philosophers.

"Besides, what recent event was so horrible that killed millions of people like this?...it probably wasn't inspired by Christianity. It was, because it was the same kind of mindless approach. That some higher or greater good, that does not exist, for the sake of which it is worth killing millions. As such it is the full expression of the morality of altruism (many must suffer or die for the sake of the rest), or murderous egotism (as opposed to morally correct egoism) which says many must suffer for 'me'.

God has no answers cause there *cannot* be such a being.

Richard said...

Methinks Johnny is a tad incensed. Good on ya. MK, Glob and Telmeimwrong are barely human. Unless, of course, you define "human" as a mindless believer in centuries old tribal pap copied by thousands of monks (short for monkeys) until it appeared on the Internet. Oh, and the Internet was not created by Gore, but by God.

mountain king said...

"Ha another fool who doesn't understan what an atheist is. There is a home for atheists all right dickhead it's called my house and any other place where atheists live...you haven't read a word of what anybody's written have you! Do you think we want to take over the state and kill all religionists? Some people are mad and power mad and atheist at the same time."

God was simply replaced by humans, kim il-sung was worshipped as North Korea diety. I alrteady discussed how atheism inspired Enver Hoxha to declare albania as the first atheist state, he was the first to officially BAN religion. You have not solved the problem of religion but made a bigger problem. Now totalarian megalomaniacks can better use dictatorship to control the masses

"So how is it that they are christian then moreover they are clergymen? oh you are about to tell me with this sermonising dibble
"
This has nothng to do with the fact that they are christians, there aren't even any verses in the bible that support child molestation, how deluded can you possibly be...fine, Two can play this game, i can also list bad atheists:
Mao Tse-tung: killed 34 to 62 million Chinese during the Chinese civil war of the 1930s and 1940s(doent include all the people killed in "legitimate" wars.)
Lenin: whom killed up to 4 million people
Enver Hoxha: Communist ruler who declared Albania the first atheist state, and who has been identified as an "arch-atheist."
Joseph Stalin: killed 20 million Soviet citizens between 1929 and 1939 because they were not politically correct(doent include all the people killed in "legitimate" wars.)
Kim il-sung: allowed only state worship and murdered up to 2 million people
Hideki Tojo: murdered up to 4 million people
leopold the second of belgium: killed 10 million people
Empress Dowager Cixi: killed 12 million people
Pol Pot: the leader of the Marxist regime in Cambodia, Kampuchea, in the 1970's killed over 1.7 million of his own people.(doent include all the people killed in "legitimate" wars.)

You just pulled up christians that molested children, i pulled out atheists that killed millions easily. NO CONTEST, and they just begun with the killing rampage...and i just want to quote your intolerance for the sake of it:
"quoting tripe from the bable is a pure joke!!"
"All that shit above is not from anything but a mishmash of crap written by men over time and is completely contradictory! "
"PREACH somewhere else you FUCKSTICK preaching, dickhead"
You know once i thought that not all atheists are like pol pot, but you are changing my mind. I told you many times to stop with the insults, you athists love to tell us how rational you are yet you keep attacking us, why are you being so hostile?. Do you think this is a coincidence that articles like these pop up?: renewamerica.us/columns/hagin/051115

"How much love you giving to practicing homosexuals?.."
Jesus is ready to forgive them only if they'll ask. Although commiting homosexuality is a sin they can be cured, it's never too late
"god doesn't love all people god casts some of us into hideous eternal pain and damnation what is all loving and compassionate about that...fucking sick is what I call it and anyone who adheres to it is really rather monstrous in my opinion especially when they are preaching that shit like you are. Totally despicable."
Aahh, the problem of hell, that's among the atheists most favorite argument
This remark totally ignores the question of free will.

As a result of man's fall we all have the tendency to do evil. In fact, we all do evil things, and although they may not always be on the scale of a Hitler, evil actions—even small ones—are still evil. If God allowed fallen humanity into heaven, our tendency to do evil would ruin heaven as it has ruined the Earth. To solve this problem God provided for our redemption by Jesus Christ's ( God in the flesh ) death on the cross. This redemption requires changing us to remove our tendency to do evil.

Now redeeming everyone whether they wanted to be redeemed or not would violate the free will of those being redeemed. It would be the spiritual equivalent of rape. So God gives us the choice. We can accept or reject his offer of redemption. This solution presented God with another problem: what to do with those who do not want to be redeemed.

By rejecting God's offer of redemption, those who do not want to be redeemed are saying, "I don't want to be with God." So God's solution is to give them what the want, they will be sent to a place without God.

The Bible describes hell as a place of eternal separation from God, so the conditions there seem to be a natural result of God removing his presence. It is not God's fault that in giving those who reject him what they want, whether it is what they expect.

In setting up his plan for man kind's redemption God has done all he can do, short of violating our free will. God even came in the flesh ( Jesus Christ ) to suffer in our place, so that we could be redeemed and saved from Hell. He has given every human that has ever lived a chance to be redeemed. The problem is human beings failing to accept redemption not God failing to offer it. God has offered redemption to all, so it is not his fault if some refuse it.
being able to accept God's offer of redemption only requires being told about it. God gives everyone some light to point them in the right direction. If they follow that light He will lead them to someone to explain His offer of redemption. There are accounts of natives from unreached tribes in Africa being led to missionaries in just this manner.
Some unbelievers object to this line of thought, however, as it appeals to the unknown. However, this is disingenuous, as the very fact that they are arguing with you proves that they have the knowledge of the Gospel, but they still refuse to accept it.

"Outrage! Damn straight!!"
The reason why I’m not going to respond to your “Bible atrocities” question: not because I cannot, but because you’re not willing to get beyond your own prejudice against the existence of God. You seem to think people doing stupid things argues against the existence of God. Get real. You want people to be free, but you want God (and His existence) responsible for their actions. And, again, I’m not here to talk theological issues and God: I’m here to show how discredited atheism is from the rivers of blood it has produced and how irrational it is from the philosophical perspective. End digression.

"That says alot about the person and not much about atheism which is only THE NON BELIEF IN GOD!
"
By the way, if I were to employ your illogic I should also be permitted to claim: "...those Crusaders did not kill in the name of Christianity. They killed for their own benefit and happened to be Christians." In fact, there is overwhelming historical evidence (see the references here: http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/11/inquisition-crusades-catholic-scandals.html) that supports the fact that those who took advantage of the intended missions of the Crusades were NOT fighting for Christianity but for themselves. What credible referenced evidence do you have to support your personal opinion that people have not killed under the mantle of atheism?


"Christianity IS an irrational belief. "
yeah so Isaac Newton was irrational...and Leonardo da vinci was also irrational...and Ken miller should really stop suypporting evolution, what an idiot. And Bede the venerable is not venerable at all, it's not like he stopped the flat earth movement
Copernicus, Kepler, Francis Bacon and Isaac Newton were inspired by their Christian faith "to investigate the natural world because of their belief that it was wisely ordered and accessible to human reason"
The world would be much poorer without Martin Luther King, Gandhi, Mother Teresa.. Bach ... St Francis, Siddartha Gautama and Jesus. There are many positive contributions made by Judaism, Christianity (founding hospitals, hospices, schools and universities, great works of art, the investigation into the world as the creation of one wise and rational God that gave birth to modern science, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, and the Red Cross) and Islam, there is plenty of room for common social action in mercy and hospitality between Christians and Muslims, and it is imperative that such commonalities are promoted. He concludes by stating that Religion "is the compassionate heart of what might otherwise seem to be a cold and heartless world."

There are quotations of data from David Myers citing surveys by Gallup, the National Opinion Research Centre and the Pew Organisation concluded that spiritually committed people are twice as likely to report being "very happy" than the least religiously committed people.

refrence: p156. The Myers book cited as The Science of Subjective Well-Being Guilford Press 2007

The analysis of over 200 social studies that "high religiousness predicts a rather lower risk of depression and drug abuse and fewer suicide attempts, and more reports of satisfaction with life and a sense of well-being"

refrence: Smith,Timothy, Michael McCullough, and Justin Poll. 2003: "Religiousness and Depression: Evidence for a Main Effect and Moderating Influence of Stressful Life Events." Psychological Bulletin 129(4):614--36.

a review of 498 studies published in peer-reviewed journals that "concluded that a large majority of these studies showed a positive correlation between religious commitment and higher levels of perceived well-being and self-esteem, and lower levels of hypertension, depression and clinical delinquency

refrence: Bryan Johnson & colleagues at the University of Pennsylvania (2002)

There are also similar results from the Handbook of Religion and Mental Health.

irrational?...seems deeply philosophical and healthy to me. Where is the atheist sheer skepticism when you need it?


"How many jews were murdered in the holocaust?"
This is going to be long...very long
Christianity had declined severely in Germany at the time the Nazis came to power, which is why the Nazis were able to come to power. In his book, The Dictators, Richard Overy states that in the decades preceding the First World War Germany was becoming increasingly secular, and that after that war, from 1918 to 1931, 2.4 million Evangelical Christians formally renounced their faith as well as almost half a million Catholics. In Prussia, only 21% of the population took communion and in Hamburg only five percent of the population took communion. Before Hitler, German religious leaders were publicly condemning the rise of moral relativism and decline of traditional religious values.

Weimar Germany largely had abandoned Christianity and increasingly was embracing hedonism, Marxism and paganism. There, decline of Christianity in Germany led directly to the rise of Nazism. Professor Henri Lichtenberger in his 1937 book, The Third Reich, describes the religious life of the Weimar Republic as a place in which the large cities were "spiritual cemeteries" with almost no believers at all, except for those who were members of the clergy. The middle class went through the motions, but lacked all living faith. The workers, influenced by socialism, were suspicious of the church. Even in the countryside, preachers had little influence on the people. In the 1938 book, The War Against God, by Sidney Dark and R.S. Essex, describes pre-Nazi antipathy toward Christianity by noting that churches had lost all their vitality and that their services were lifeless. Mower, in his 1938 book, Germany Puts the Clock Back, wrote that by 1920, God and Christianity had been in steady decline, a process that had begun in 1860. Mower talks about a culture not so much casual as vicious about sexuality. He writes of art sickened into atonal music, about the absence of any sense of sin, about entire graduating classes in high school turning up for birth control devices, and about the commonplace occurrence of abortion.
This hostility or indifference toward Christianity in Europe, and especially in Germany, led naturally to a profound anti-Christian sentiment in Nazi Germany. Nazis, more than most Germans, were indifferent or hostile to Christianity. Hitler originally appeared to just ignore Christianity. Dark and Essex write in their 1938 book that Mein Kampf has few passages which in any way refer to religion, none that refer to Hitler's own personal religion, or to the teaching of the Bible, nor any branch of Christian teaching. Jacob Marcus in his 1934 book by the Union of American Hebrew Congregations notes that "Though his parents were both Catholics, Hitler himself has apparently no interest in any organized religion." Marcus also has an entire section in his book about Nazi "anti-Christian anti-Semitism." Rauschning in 1938 wrote

"The purpose of the National Socialism fight against Christianity is the same: the total destruction of the last and most deep-rooted support of the forces of conservation. The destruction of the spirit of Christianity in Germany is certainly more far-reaching than appears on the surface...Such vestiges of living Christianity as remain are steadily degenerating in the direction of a superficial and unthinking deism" and that ultimate goal as "...the total abolition of Christianity, which is not a mere philosophical fad of the National Socialists but an iron necessity of their system."

Within a year of taking power, Hitler was saying:
"Christianity was incapable of uniting the Germans, and that only an entirely new world-theory was capable of doing so."
Also within a year of the Nazis taking power, The Twenty-Five Theses of the German Religion, a conscious modeling of the twenty-five points of the Nazi program, was published in Germany. Thesis XV of that Nazi publication states:
"The Ethic of the German Religion condemns all belief in inherited sin, as well as the Jewish-Christian teaching of a fallen world. Such a teaching is not only non-Germanic and non-German, it is immoral and nonreligious. Whoever preaches this menaces the morality of the people."
In February 1937 Hanns Kerrl, Minister of Religion in the Third Reich, said:
"The question of the divinity of Christ is ridiculous and inessential. A new answer has arisen as to what Christ and Christianity are: Adolph Hitler."
University Nazis in Keil wrote in 1935:
"We Germans are heathens and want no more Jewish religion in our Germany. We no longer believe in the Holy Ghost; we believe in the Holy Blood."

Preaching from the pulpit against Rosenberg's racial theories was forbidden by the Nazis and Law 130 threatened penalties against any priest who preached "against the interest of the state." Göring ordered that the Hitler Gruss (the Hitler salute) was the only religious gesture allowed.
Just as Nazi propaganda made odious caricatures of lecherous Jewish preying on young German maidens, Nazi propaganda made identical caricatures of lecherous priests preying on young German maidens. In August 1935, the bishops of Germany presented at Fulda a pastoral letter warning of the Nazi "campaign of annihilation against Christianity" and a year after that Bishop Bornewasser publicly spoke about the Christian men and women who were persecuted by the Nazis because of their faith.
On November 4, 1936, the Nazis ordered the removal of crucifixes from schools in the Oldenburg area on the grounds that these were "symbols of superstition." This order was rescinded only after Nazis were faced with determined local opposition. Then despite rescinding the Nazi prohibition of these "symbols of superstition," in December 1936 Nazi bureaucrats simply removed crucifixes anyway in Munsterland. When Christians replaced them in some schools, they were arrested by the Nazis.
Nordland, a Nazi magazine, called the Sermon on the Mount "the first Bolshevist manifesto." The principle of the National Socialist state, Hitler told an audience in 1937, was "not in Christianity nor in social theory but in the unified people's community," and the same year Himmler banned all Confessing Church seminaries and instruction and he closed all private religious schools two years later.
In 1937 Stephen H. Roberts wrote in his book, The House That Hitler Built, that the hostility between Nazism and churches began as soon as the Nazis came to power, and that it quickly became impossible to be a good Catholic and a good Nazi. Some Nazis were overtly and clearly anti-Christian. Others were simply silent. Hitler, however, did nothing to stop the drumbeat of pagan propaganda within the Nazi Party which included Heinrich Himmler, Baldur von Schirach, Alfred Rosenberg, Dr. Frick and many others, some of whom formally renounced their Christianity. The Confessional groups of Christians—Protestants who had refused to join the "German Christian" movement—sent Hitler a letter in May 1936 asking whether he intended to "de-Christianize the German people." The response was wholly unsatisfactory, with the Christian clergy believing that Hitler had accepted honors due only to God."
Nazis hated and mocked Christianity. Most particularly, Nazis loathed the ideas that faith, not race, was critical and that Christians had a duty to love all people, including Jews. Christian clergymen were harassed, dismissed, arrested, tortured and murdered for defending these beliefs. It is hard to see how less robust Christian faith would have made the lot of Jews easier in Nazi Germany. It is impossible not to see that, except for brave Christians, the lot of German Jews (some of whom escaped the Holocaust) would have been worse.
Dorothy Thompson wrote on October 17, 1938 that National Socialism, like Communism, was a secular religion and that until that was understood, then nothing about Nazism and Communism made sense. She then noted that both violated the First Commandment, "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me." Then Thompson states that this is why the most formidable opposition to both these totalitarianism movements came from people of faith; and that while it may be possible to unite Communism or National Socialism with some economic theory or political system or sociology, it is absolutely impossible to harmonize either with the Bible. She observes that those who have thrown their lot with Hitler in Germany were those without serious religious convictions, and that Hitler has found the only opponent he could not terrorize or bribe among the Christians of Germany.
The same year, Professor Micklem at Oxford noted that
"All political questions are at bottom theological. The clash between National Socialism and the Christian church rests upon the incompatibility of two views of the world, two 'anthropologies.' In National Socialism there are no ultimate, universal standards. Right is defined as that which accords with the demands of the people's souls.... The Church in Germany is of no mere ephemeral interest. It raises in an acute form an issue which both National Socialism and Bolshevism present to every country. What is to be the foundation of European civilization?"
The same book reveals—surprise!—that the pagan anti-Christian Nazi leader Alfred Rosenberg’s movement "might easily ally itself with the anti-Christianity of Moscow." Of course, it did just that.
Fodor, who personally knew Russian Bolsheviks and followed closely the Bolshevik Revolution as well as the National Socialist revolution and the Fascist regime, noted in his 1940 book that the Nazis surpassed all other totalitarian systems in its persecution of churches, finding even the Soviet Union less hateful toward Christianity than the Nazis, who persecuted not only Christians but Christianity itself. In 1938 Hendrik Willem van Loon stated that Hitler has tried to deprive society of the only foundation on which true civilization and world peace can be grounded, Christianity, and for that van Loon leaves Hitler to the judgment of God. Overy, in his book, The Dictators, observes that Hitler’s attitude toward religion and Christianity was identical to that of the Bolsheviks.
The very same year, Thomas Mann, in his book School for Barbarians, wrote that the fanatic war of National Socialism against the Church is fought on so large a field that the contest results only in battles won by one side and then the other, but that one thing is clear: "the stake of the war is the souls of the children. Both sides are battling for their future." Mann notes that the three enemies constantly cited by Nazis were Judaism, Freemasonry and Christianity; and that the remedy proposed by the Nazis to solve the enemy of Christianity was to take Christian children, whose parents insisted on teaching them Christian virtues, away from their parents (much like the Bolsheviks would take Christian children away from their parents).
This is similar to what Pierre van Paassen wrote in his 1939 book, Days of Our Lives, who says that Germany is farther on the road to dechristianization than the Soviet Union and that in place of God, Nazis have placed the almighty state which demands everything from man. Also in 1939 Ernest Hambloch wrote that because the Roman Catholic Church had been opposing the Nazis as pagan, the Nazis accused the Vatican of being in league with Communism. The same year Ogg wrote in European Government and Politics that from the Nazi viewpoint Christianity was part of the common value systems which the Nazis most vigorously opposed, that the Nazis specifically objected to values of "a common European origin" and that Nazism opposed reason as a workable guide to social action."
Even the most superficial Christianity was rejected by many Nazi leaders and Nazi organizations. Karl Haushoffer, the mentor of many early Nazi leaders, preached non-Christian beliefs, and Nazi metaphysics included organizations like the Thule Society whose members greatly admired the Japanese Black Dragon Society. The Thule Society practiced occultism, alchemy and Islamic mysticism. Perhaps the best example of absolute repudiation of Christianity, even nominal Christianity contorted into something grotesquely different than any professed Christianity, comes from the mouth of Julius Streicher, a notorious defamer of Jews. He said that "It is only on one or two exceptional points that Christ and Hitler stand comparison, for Hitler is far too big a man to be compared with one so petty."
Christ, to Nazis, was a nebbish. Hitler was their Christ. The same book, which was published a few years after HaShoah by a respected Jewish organization trying to understand the nature of Nazi evil notes:
"A Nazi magazine commented on the Golden Rule in 1939: ‘This fundamental law of Christianity completely contradicts our moral conscience, contradicts above all our warrior-like nature peculiar to the soul of our race.’ Children were taught to pray to Hitler instead of to God. Grace before meals given to poor children by the Nazi Welfare Committee ended: ‘For this food, my Fuehrer, my thanks I render.’ Another official child’s prayer ended: ‘My Fuehrer, by Fuehrer, my faith and my light, Heil my Fuehrer.’"
Alfred Rosenberg, Nazi theoretician, said that there was no place in the Third Reich for Christianity in any form. Christian ceremonies surrounding births, marriages, deaths and other solemnities ceased to be performed by Christian clergy. His ponderous tome, The Myth of the Twentieth Century, not only called for banning crucifixes from churches but also from village streets, and also for banning medieval images of Christ as the Lamb of God. In the training camps of the Nazi Party it was repeatedly stated that National Socialism has three enemies: Judaism, Masonry and Christianity. Martin Bormann hated Christianity even more than most Nazi leaders. Goebbels frequently made fun of Christian morality. Nazis in general considered Christianity a "soul malady," "foreign" and "unnatural." Heinrich Himmler despised Christianity and members of the SS had to formally renounce their Christian faith and formally become agnostic in order to become a member of the Schutzstaffel.
Erich Ludendorff, the earliest and most important political figure in Germany to support the Nazis, said:
"The Jews are not our enemies because of their race, but because one of their subtlest rabbis, that man called Saint Paul, distilled the poison of the Christ myth out of the life of the story of Jesus of Nazareth. The Jews are enemies of the Nordic race because they produced Christianity, which has been the poison that has destroyed the vitality of the Aryan people."
Matilde von Kemnitz, the wife of Ludendorff, promoted an unchristian neo-Teutonic cult that called, among other things, for the destruction of all churches and the creation of forest temples as places of sacrifice to pagan deities. Not only were Christians particularly hated by Nazis, but Jews were hated because Christianity came out of Judaism. Christianity emphatically repudiates racial theories, the right of the strong to dominate the weak, and other notions dear to Nazis. Hambloch in 1939 wrote:
"Modern democracy is the child of Christianity, and both were therefore anathema to Gobineau [the racial theorist who gave rise to much of Nazi racial "science."] Nietzsche proclaimed he was Antichrist. Gobineau was far more anti-social. He was anti-Christian."
Christianity is perfect anti-Nazism and the Nazis knew it. Members of the Hitler Youth were forbidden to join church organizations and membership in the Hitler Youth which was more or less compulsory. Hitler Youth meetings were deliberately scheduled to coincide with Sunday church services. Hitler Youth were taught to be rebellious against their parents, contemptuous of religion and to use crude and offensive language. Lowenstein in 1941 wrote that in the Hitler Youth the neo-pagan cult began to fill the gap which was the result of a conscious erosion of Christianity.
The Nazis even forbade parents to give their children Christian names and ordered babies instead to be given names like Dietrich, Otto or Siegfried. The teaching of Christianity by parents in the home was forbidden. Churches were not allowed to collect funds for charitable work. The Nazis transferred Catholic clergy to Protestant areas and Protestant clergy to Catholic areas. Nazis smeared excrement on church altars and church doors, desecrated shrines, and threw statutes of saints into dung piles; and when synagogues were not available to attack and loot, churches were the target with Nazis yelling: "Down with Christians and Jews!" In many places, historic church feast days and holidays were banned and even the display of religious flags and banners was outlawed; often Nazis cordoned off areas necessary for church pilgrimages and offered free beer and sausages for secular events that deliberately coincided with church festivals.
This article is but the tip of the iceberg of evidence showing the total hatred for Christianity held by the Nazis. It is also instructive to note that these same authors (and many others) observed that the only organized resistance to Nazism in Germany came from devout Christians.

Johnny said...

By the way, if I were to employ your illogic I should also be permitted to claim: "...those Crusaders did not kill in the name of Christianity. They killed for their own benefit and happened to be Christians." In fact, there is overwhelming historical evidence (see the references here: http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/11/inquisition-crusades-catholic-scandals.html) that supports the fact that those who took advantage of the intended missions of the Crusades were NOT fighting for Christianity but for themselves. What credible referenced evidence do you have to support your personal opinion that people have not killed under the mantle of atheism?
Ha you dolt you are using an argument of mine that you call illogical as a logical argument. In fact those "christians" (I would say that Da Vinci was NOT a Christian.) that you go on to say contributed to mankind were doing the very same thing. Compartmentalising, they would have made the discoveries weather they were christian or atheist. Your whole argument relies on the existence of something that there is no credible evidence for, you say the gospel is evidence, I say it is no more credible than any other scripture in any other religion and of course all scripture for all religions was written by man. You claim i am prejudiced against the existence of god! I need evidence how many fucking times do I have to say it!! The bible is no more evidence for god than the Bhagavad Gita, al-Qur'an,Talmud,Tao-te-ching,Upanishads,Veda or any other scripture you care to put forward. Mate you can write a million words and it will still fall in a total hole for you see you have no credible evidence, all you have is the shit you spout. I never said that atrocities were not done under the mantle of Atheism, just like your argument that child molesting priests did what they did for themselves so too do any atheists who commit atrocities in it's name...how fucking stupid are you? Atheism is not a world view, I am an atheist and I am not going to kill anyone I am certainly not bound by my non belief in god to do anything whatsoever!! You seem to think, like most religionists, that you need god because he provides moral absolutes. This is totally erroneous there is only one moral absolute and that is do not willfully harm your fellow man.
I fail to see your point about the religious being happier than the non religious...of course people believeing in a safety blanket like religion is going to make some(those like you who are scared and insecure about death and non existence) people feel more secure and thus happier, that says absolutely fuck all about the existence of god you jackass!! Once again in the absence of credible evidence there will for me be the absence of belief. You hve done nothing but spoken about humans and their behaviour and nothing about the actual evidence for the existence of any deity!!
You know once i thought that not all atheists are like pol pot, but you are changing my mind. I told you many times to stop with the insults
What a fucking hypocrite arsehole you are mountain twat, comparing anyone to pol pot is a far greater insult than being called a puerile name, at least I am up front and have no qualms in calling you names and razzing you. You on the other hand, like most of your ilk-glob yourwrong etc....rely on snide backhand insults while claiming the higher moral ground which actually makes you duplicitous and far worse, better go to confessional dude surely that is a sin. Once again there is no rule in the atheist handbook- because there is NOT one that says I am not allowed to call people names, I am me and when I am frustrated with a cunt like you I will call you a cunt simple as that, I actually fail to see what that has to do with rationality... Insulting you is NOT part of my argument dumbass it is just calling you names you filthy hypocrite.
So unless you are forthcomming with credible hard evidence for the existence of you particular god then stop wasting our fucking time!!
As for the hitler rubbish I think we are begining to establish that people doing things under the mantle of anything doesn't necessarily mean anything about that specific mantle, in fact most events unless specificly religious are going to happen regardless of relion or atheism thank you for helping me with my argument. Can't let you say that hitler wasn't christian though just cause I think you are a deluded jerk oh and to make me look smart like you hahahahah and have a really long post that people aren't going to read all of anyway!!

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922

[Note, "brood of vipers" appears in Matt. 3:7 & 12:34. John 2:15 depicts Jesus driving out the money changers (adders) from the temple. The word "adders" also appears in Psalms 140:3]


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Just as the Jew could once incite the mob of Jerusalem against Christ, so today he must succeed in inciting folk who have been duped into madness to attack those who, God's truth! seek to deal with this people in utter honesty and sincerity.
-Adolf Hitler, in Munich, 28 July 1922


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In the Bible we find the text, 'That which is neither hot nor cold will I spew out of my mouth.' This utterance of the great Nazarene has kept its profound validity until the present day.
-Adolf Hitler, speech in Munich, 10 April 1923

[The Bible quote comes Jesus speaking in Revelation 3:16]



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In the life of nations, what in the last resort decides questions is a kind of Judgment Court of God.... Always before god and the world the stronger has the right to carry through what he wills.

-Adolf Hitler, speech in Munich, 13 April 1923


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There are three words which many use without a thought which for us are no catch-phrases: Love, Faith, and Hope.... We are fanatical in our love for our people....

We have faith in the rights of our people, the rights which have existed time out of mind. We protest against the view that every other nation should have rights - and we have none. We must learn to make our own this blind faith in the rights of our people, in the necessity of devoting ourselves to the service of these rights; we must make our own the faith that gradually victory must be granted us if only we are fanatical enough. And from this love and from this faith there emerges for us the idea of hope. When others doubt and hesitate for the future of Germany - we have no doubts. We have both the hope and the faith that Germany will and must once more become great and mighty.

We have faith that one day Heaven will bring the Germans back into a Reich over which there shall be no Soviet star, no Jewish star of David, but above that Reich there shall be the symbol of German labor - the Swastika. And that will mean that the first of May has truly come.

-Adolf Hitler, speech in Munich, 01 May 1923

[Love, Faith, and Hope comes from I Corinthians 13:13 NIV]


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People ask: is there someone fit to be our leader? Our task is not to search for that person. Either God will give him to us or he will not come. Our task is to shape the sword that he will need when he comes. Our task it to provide the leader with a nation which is ready for him when he comes! My fellow Germans, awaken! The new day is dawning!

-Adolf Hitler, 04 May 1923


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It matters not whether these weapons of ours are humane: if they gain us our freedom, they are justified before our conscience and before our God.

-Adolf Hitler, in Munich, 01 Aug. 1923


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It will at any rate be my supreme task to see to it that in the newly awakened NSDAP, the adherents of both Confessions can live peacefully together side by side in order that they may take their stand in the common fight against the power which is the mortal foe of any true Christianity.
-Adolf Hitler, in an article headed "A New Beginning," 26 Feb. 1925


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A few days ago I was in Eisenach and stood on top of the Wartburg, where a great German once translated the Bible.

-Adolf Hitler, in Schleiz, Thuringia, 18 Jan. 1927

[The great German Hitler speaks about, of course, describes Martin Luther]


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We are a people of different faiths, but we are one. Which faith conquers the other is not the question; rather, the question is whether Christianity stands or falls.... We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity... in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Passau, 27 October 1928, Bundesarchiv Berlin-Zehlendorf, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]


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We are determined, as leaders of the nation, to fulfill as a national government the task which has been given to us, swearing fidelity only to God, our conscience, and our Volk.... This the national government will regard its first and foremost duty to restore the unity of spirit and purpose of our Volk. It will preserve and defend the foundations upon which the power of our nation rests. It will take Christianity, as the basis of our collective morality, and the family as the nucleus of our Volk and state, under its firm protection....May God Almighty take our work into his grace, give true form to our will, bless our insight, and endow us with the trust of our Volk.

-Adolf Hitler, on 1 Feb. 1933, addressing the German nation as Chancellor for the first time, Volkischer Beobachter, 5 Aug. 1935, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]


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Except the Lord built the house they labour in vain.... The truth of that text was proved if one looks at the house of which the foundations were laid in 1918 and which since then has been in building.... The world will not help, the people must help itself. Its own strength is the source of life. That strength the Almighty has given us to use; that in it and through it we may wage the battle of our life.... The others in the past years have not had the blessing of the Almighty-- of Him Who in the last resort, whatever man may do, holds in His hands the final decision. Lord God, let us never hesitate or play the coward, let us never forget the duty which we have taken upon us.... We are all proud that through God's powerful aid we have become once more true Germans.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in March 1933

[Note, "Except the Lord built the house, they labour in vain" comes from Psalms 127:1 ]


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The Government, being resolved to undertake the political and moral purification of our public life, are creating and securing the conditions necessary for a really profound revival of religious life.... The National Government regard the two Christian Confessions as the weightiest factors for the maintenance of our nationality. They will respect the agreements concluded between them and the federal States. Their rights are not to be infringed.... It will be the Government's care to maintain honest co-operation between Church and State; the struggle against materialistic views and for a real national community is just as much in the interest of the German nation as in that of the welfare of our Christian faith. The Government of the Reich, who regard Christianity as the unshakable foundation of the morals and moral code of the nation, attach the greatest value to friendly relations with the Holy See and are endeavouring to develop them.

-Adolf Hitler, in his speech to the Reichstag on 23 March 1933


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The Catholic Church considered the Jews pestilent for fifteen hundred years, put them in ghettos, etc, because it recognized the Jews for what they were".... I recognize the representatives of this race as pestilent for the state and for the church and perhaps I am thereby doing Christianity a great service by pushing them out of schools and public functions.

-Adolf Hitler, 26 April 1933, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]


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We want honestly to earn the resurrection of our people through our industry, our perseverance, our will. We ask not of the Almighty 'Lord, make us free'!-- we want to be active, to work, to agree together as brothers, to strive in rivalry with one another to bring about the hour when we can come before Him and when we may ask of Him: 'Lord, Thou seest that we have transformed ourselves, the German people is not longer the people of dishonour, of shame, of war within itself, of faintheartedness and little faith: no, Lord, the German people has become strong again in spirit, strong in will, strong in endurance, strong to bear all sacrifices.' 'Lord, we will not let Thee go: bless now our fight for our freedom; the fight we wage for our German people and Fatherland.'

-Adolf Hitler, giving prayer in a speech on May Day 1933


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This is for us a ground for satisfaction, since we desire that the fight in the religious camps should come to an end... all political action in the parties will be forbidden to priests for all time, happy because we know what is wanted by millions who long to see in the priest only the comforter of their souls and not the representative of their political convictions.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech to the men of the SA. at Dormund, 9 July 1933 on the day after the signing of the Concordat.


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National Socialism has always affirmed that it is determined to take the Christian Churches under the protection of the State.... The decisive factor which can justify the existence alike of Church and State is the maintenance of men's spiritual and bodily health, for it that health were destroyed it would mean the end of the State and also the end of the Church.... It is my sincere hope that thereby for Germany, too, through free agreement there has been produced a final clarification of spheres in the functions of the State and of one Church.
-Adolf Hitler, on a wireless on 22 July, the evening before the Evangelical Church Election


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The fact that the Vatican is concluding a treaty with the new Germany means the acknowledgement of the National Socialist state by the Catholic Church. This treaty shows the whole world clearly and unequivocally that the assertion that National Socialism [Nazism] is hostile to religion is a lie.
-Adolf Hitler, 22 July 1933, writing to the Nazi Party (quoted from John Cornwell's "Hitler's Pope"


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Among the congregations of the Protestant confessions there has arisen in the "German Christians' a movement that is filled with the determination to do justice to the great tasks of the day and has aimed at a union of the Protestant state churches and confessions. If this question is not really on the way towards a solution, in the judgement of history no false or stupid objections will be able to dispute the fact that this service was rendered by the volkisch movement at a time when, unfortunately, just as in the Roman Church, many pastors and superintendents without reason have opposed the national uprising in the most violent, indeed, often fanatical, way.
-Adolf Hitler, in a radio address on 22 July 1933 to the German people after a performance of Wagner's Christian allegory Parsifal in Bayreuth. [from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]


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We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933

[This statement clearly refutes modern Christians who claim Hitler as favoring atheism.]


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I believe that Providence would never have allowed us to see the victory of the Movement if it had the intention after all to destroy us at the end.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech to old members of the Party at Munich on 8 Nov. 1933


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The German Church and the People are practically the same body. Therefore there could be no issue between Church and State. The Church, as such, has nothing to do with political affairs. On the other hand, the State has nothing to do with the faith or inner organization of the Church. The election of November 12th would be an expression of church constituency, but not as a Church.
-Adolf Hitler, answering C. F. Macfarland about Church & State (in his book, The New Church and the New Germany)


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While we destroyed the Centre Party, we have not only brought thousands of priests back into the Church, but to millions of respectable people we have restored their faith in their religion and in their priests. The union of the Evangelical Church in a single Church for the whole Reich, the Concordat with the Catholic Church, these are but milestones on the road which leads to the establishment of a useful relation and a useful co operation between the Reich and the two Confessions.
-Adolf Hitler, in his New Year Message on 1 Jan. 1934


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Imbued with the desire to secure for the German people the great religious, moral, and cultural values rooted in the two Christian Confessions, we have abolished the political organizations but strengthened the religious institutions.
-Adolf Hitler, speaking in the Reichstag on 30 Jan. 1934


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It would have been more to the point, more honest and more Christian, in past decades not to support those who intentionally destroyed healthy life than to rebel against those who have no other wish than to avoid disease. Moreover, a policy of laissez faire in this sphere is not only cruelty to the individual guiltless victims but also to the nation as a whole.... If the Churches were to declare themselves ready to take over the treatment and care of those suffering from hereditary diseases, we should be quite ready to refrain from sterilizing them.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech on 30 Jan. 1934


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We have experienced a miracle, something unique, something the like of which there has hardly been in the history of the world. God first allowed our people to be victorious for four and a half years, then He abased us, laid upon us a period of shamelessness, but now after a struggle of fourteen years he has permitted us to bring that period to a close. It is a miracle which has been wrought upon the German people.... It shows us that the Almighty has not deserted our people, that He received it into favour at the moment when it rediscovered itself. And that our people shall never again lose itself, that must be our vow so long as we shall live and so long as the Lord gives us the strength to carry on the fight.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech to the "Old Guard" of the Party at Munich on 19 March, 1934


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The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity. It will be its honest endeavour to protect both the great Christian Confessions in their rights, to secure them from interference with their doctrines (Lehren ), and in their duties to constitute a harmony with the views and the exigencies of the State of to-day.
-Adolf Hitler, on 26 June 1934, to Catholic bishops to assure them that he would take action against the new pagan propaganda


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No, it is not we that have deserted Christianity, it is those who came before us who deserted Christianity. We have only carried through a clear division between politics which have to do with terrestrial things, and religion, which must concern itself with the celestial sphere. There has been no interference with the doctrine (Lehre ) of the Confessions or with their religious freedom (Bekenntnisfreiheit ), nor will there be any such interference. On the contrary the State protects religion, though always on the one condition that religion will not be used as a cover for political ends....
National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary it stands on the ground of a real Christianity.... For their interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against a Bolshevist culture, against atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for a consciousness of a community in our national life... These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles! And I believe that if we should fail to follow these principles then we should to be able to point to our successes, for the result of our political battle is surely not unblest by God.

-Adolf Hitler, in his speech at Koblenz, to the Germans of the Saar, 26 Aug. 1934


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So far as the Evangelical Confessions are concerned we are determined to put an end to existing divisions, which are concerned only with the forms of organization, and to create a single Evangelical Church for the whole Reich....
And we know that were the great German reformer [Martin Luther] with us to-day he would rejoice to be freed from the necessity of his own time and, like Ulrich von Hutten, his last prayer would be not for the Churches of the separate States: it would be of Germany that he would think and of the Evangelical Church of Germany.

-Adolf Hitler, in his Proclamation at the Parteitag at Nuremberg on 5 Sept. 1934

[Note, Martin Luther provided Germany with the seeds of violent antisemitism. Learn about Martin Luther's dirty little book.


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So we have come together on this day to prove symbolically that we are more than a collection of individuals striving one against another, that none of us is too proud, none of us too high, none is too rich, and none too poor, to stand together before the face of the Lord and of the world in this indissoluble, sworn community. And this united nation, we have need of it.

-Adolf Hitler, in Berlin, 01 May 1935


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What we are we have become not against, but with, the will of Providence. And so long as we are true and honourable and of good courage in fight, so long as we believe in our great work and do not capitulate, we shall continue to enjoy in the future the blessing of Providence.

-Adolf Hitler, at Rosenheim in Bavaria, 11 Aug. 1935


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Only so you can appeal to your God and pray Him to support and bless your courage, your work, your perseverance, your strength, your resolution, and with all these your claim on life.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Frankfurt on 16 March 1936


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In this world him who does not abandon himself the Almighty will not desert. Him who helps himself will the Almighty always also help; He will show him the way by which he can gain his rights, his freedom, and therefore his future.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Hamburg on 20 March 1936


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Providence has caused me to be Catholic, and I know therefore how to handle this Church.
-Adolf Hitler, reportedly to have said in Berlin in 1936 on the enmity of the Catholic Church to National Socialism


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I believe in Providence and I believe Providence to be just. Therefore I believe that Providence always rewards the strong, the industrious, and the upright.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech to National Socialist women at the Nuremberg Parteitag of 1936 [11 Sept. 1936]


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I say that they can be solved; there is no problem that cannot be, but faith is necessary. Think of the faith I had to have eighteen years ago, a single man on a lonely path. Yet I have come to leadership of the German people....

Life is hard for many, but it is hardest if you are unhappy and have no faith. Have faith.

Nothing can make me change my own belief.

-Adolf Hitler, in Nuremberg, 12 Sept. 1936


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This is probably the first time and this is the first country in which people are being taught to realize that, of all the tasks which we have to face, the noblest and most sacred for mankind is that each racial species must preserve the purity of the blood which God has given it....

The greatest revolution which National Socialism has brought about is that it has rent asunder the veil which hid from us the knowledge that all human failures and mistakes are due to the conditions of the time and therefore can be remedied, but that there is one error which cannot be remedied once men have made it, namely the failure to recognize the importance of conserving the blood and the race free from intermixture and thereby the racial aspect and character which are God's gift and God's handiwork. It is not for men to discuss the question of why Providence created different races, but rather to recognize the fact that it punishes those who disregard its work of creation....

As I look back on the great work that has been done during the past four years you will understand quite well that my first feeling is simply one of thankfulness to our Almighty God for having allowed me to bring this work to success. He has blessed our labors and has enabled our people to come through all the obstacles which encompassed them on their way....

Today I must humbly thank Providence, whose grace has enabled me, who was once an unknown soldier in the War, to bring to a successful issue the struggle for the restoration of our honor and rights as a nation.

-Adolf Hitler, before the Reichstag, 30 Jan. 1937


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So long as they concern themselves with their religious problems the State does not concern itself with them. But so soon as they attempt by any means whatsoever-- by letters, Encyclica, or otherwise-- to arrogate to themselves rights which belong to the State alone we shall force them back into their proper spiritual, pastoral activity.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered in Berlin on the May Day festival, 1937


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We National Socialists, too, have deep in our hearts our own faith. We cannot do otherwise. No man can mould the history of peoples or of the world unless he has upon his will and his capacities the blessing of Providence.
-Adolf Hitler, to Nazi leaders on 2 June 1937, as reported by a correspondent of the "Daily Telegraph"


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I will never allow anyone to divide this people once more into religious camps, each fighting the other....
You, my Brown Guard, will regard it as a matter of course that this German people should go only by the way which Providence ordained for it when it gave to Germans the common language. So we go forward with the profoundest faith in God into the future. Would that which we have achieved have been possible if Providence had not helped us?

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Regensburg on 6 June 1937


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If we pursue this way, if we are decent, industrious, and honest, if we so loyally and truly fulfill our duty, then it is my conviction that in the future as in the past the Lord God will always help us. In the long run He never leaves decent folk in the lurch. Often He may test them, He may send trials upon them, but in the long run He always lets His sun shine upon them once more and at the end He gives them His blessing.
-Adolf Hitler, at the Harvest Thanksgiving Festival on the Buckeburg held on 3 Oct. 1937


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This Winter Help Work is also in the deepest sense a Christian work. When I see, as I so often do, poorly clad girls collecting with such infinite patience in order to care for those who are suffering from the cold while they themselves are shivering with cold, then I have the feeling that they are all apostles of a Christianity-- and in truth of a Christianity which can say with greater right than any other: This is the Christianity of an honest confession, for behind it stand not words but deeds.
-Adolf Hitler, speaking of the Winter Help Campaign on 5 Oct. 1937


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Remain strong in your faith, as you were in former years. In this faith, in its close-knit unity our people to-day goes straight forward on its way and no power on earth will avail to stop it.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Coburg on 15 Oct. 1937


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In this hour I would ask of the Lord God only this: that, as in the past, so in the years to come He would give His blessing to our work and our action, to our judgement and our resolution, that He will safeguard us from all false pride and from all cowardly servility, that He may grant us to find the straight path which His Providence has ordained for the German people, and that He may ever give us the courage to do the right, never to falter, never to yield before any violence, before any danger.... I am convinced that men who are created by God should live in accordance with the will of the Almighty.... If Providence had not guided us I could often never have found these dizzy paths.... Thus it is that we National Socialists, too, have in the depths of our hearts our faith. We cannot do otherwise: no man can fashion world-history or the history of peoples unless upon his purpose and his powers there rests the blessings of this Providence.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Wurzburg on 27 June 1937


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National Socialism is not a cult-movement-- a movement for worship; it is exclusively a 'volkic' political doctrine based upon racial principles. In its purpose there is no mystic cult, only the care and leadership of a people defined by a common blood-relationship.... We will not allow mystically-minded occult folk with a passion for exploring the secrets of the world beyond to steal into our Movement. Such folk are not National Socialists, but something else-- in any case something which has nothing to do with us. At the head of our programme there stand no secret surmisings but clear-cut perception and straightforward profession of belief. But since we set as the central point of this perception and of this profession of belief the maintenance and hence the security for the future of a being formed by God, we thus serve the maintenance of a divine work and fulfill a divine will-- not in the secret twilight of a new house of worship, but openly before the face of the Lord.... Our worship is exclusively the cultivation of the natural, and for that reason, because natural, therefore God-willed. Our humility is the unconditional submission before the divine laws of existence so far as they are known to us men.
-Adolf Hitler, in Nuremberg on 6 Sept. 1938.

[Christians have always accused Hitler of believing in pagan cult mythology. Here he clearly expresses his stand against cults and reinforces his Christian views.]


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Thus one of Europe's most serious crises will be ended, and all of us, not only in Germany but those far beyond our frontiers, will then in this year for the first time really rejoice at the Christmas festival. It should for us all be a true Festival of Peace....

-Adolf Hitler, in Berlin, 05 Oct. 1938

[This statement disputes some who claim that Hitler outlawed Christmas.]


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God helps only those who are prepared and determined to help themselves.

-Adolf Hitler, 06 Nov. 1938, Weimar


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The National Socialist Movement has wrought this miracle. If Almighty God granted success to this work, then the Party was His instrument.
-Adolf Hitler, in his proclamation to the German People on 01 Jan. 1939


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We are indeed perhaps better able than other generations to realize the full meaning of those pious words "What a change by the grace of God".

Amongst the accusations which are directed against Germany in the so called democracies is the charge that the National Socialist State is hostile to religion. In answer to that charge I should like to make before the German people the following solemn declaration:

1. No one in Germany has in the past been persecuted because of his religious views (Einstellung), nor will anyone in the future be so persecuted.... The Churches are the greatest landed proprietors after the State... Further, the Church in the National Socialist State is in many ways favoured in regard to taxation, and for gifts, legacies, &c., it enjoys immunity from taxation.

It is therefore, to put mildly-- effrontery when especially foreign politicians make bold to speak of hostility to religion in the Third Reich.... I would allow myself only one question: what contributions during the same period have France, England, or the United States made through the State from the public funds?

3. The National Socialist State has not closed a church, nor has it prevented the holding of a religious service, nor has it ever exercised any influence upon the form of a religious service. It has not exercised any pressure upon the doctrine nor on the profession of faith of any of the Confessions. In the National Socialist State anyone is free to seek his blessedness after his own fashion.... There are ten thousands and ten thousands of priests of all the Christian Confessions who perform their ecclesiastical duties just as well as or probably better than the political agitators without ever coming into conflict with the laws of the State.... This State has only once intervened in the internal regulation of the Churches, that is when I myself in 1933 endeavoured to unite the weak and divided Protestant Churches of the different States into one great and powerful Evangelical Church of the Reich. That attempt failed through the opposition of the bishops of some States; it was therefore abandoned. For it is in the last resort not our task to defend or even to strengthen the Evangelical Church through violence against its own representatives.... But on one point it is well that there should be no uncertainty: the German priest as servant of God we shall protect, the priest as political enemy of the German State we shall destroy.

-Adolf Hitler, a speech in the Reichstag on 30 Jan. 1939

[That last sentence sums up Hitler's stand on the priesthood. Rather than standing for atheism, as today's Christians would like, Hitler attacked the priesthood only if they stood in Hitler's political path.]


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If positive Christianity means love of one's neighbour, i.e. the tending of the sick, the clothing of the poor, the feeding of the hungry, the giving of drink to those who are thirsty, then it is we who are the more positive Christians. For in these spheres the community of the people of National Socialist Germany has accomplished a prodigious work.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech to the "Old Guard" at Munich on 24 Feb. 1939


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Help yourself, then God will also help you!

The German people was created by Providence, not in order to obey a law which suits Englishmen or Frenchmen, but to stand up for its vital right. That is what we are there for!

-Adolf Hitler, at Wilhemshaven, 01 April 1939


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I can give vent to my inmost feelings only in the form of humble thanks to Providence which called upon me and vouchsafed it to me, once an unknown soldier of the Great War, to rise to be the Leader of my people, so dear to me.
Providence showed me the way to free our people from the depths of its misery without bloodshed and to lead it upward once again. Providence granted that I might fulfill my life's task-to raise my German people out of the depths of defeat and to liberate it from the bonds of the most outrageous dictate of all times....

I have regarded myself as called upon by Providence to serve my own people alone and to deliver them from their frightful misery.

-Adolf Hitler, before the Reichstag, 28 April 1939


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As Fuehrer of the German people and Chancellor of the Reich, I can thank God at this moment that he has so wonderfully blessed us in our hard struggle for what is our right, and beg Him that we and all other nations may find the right way, so that not only the German people but all Europe may once more be granted the blessing of peace.

-Adolf Hitler, before the Reichstag, 06 Oct. 1939


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[I] never lost my belief, in the midst of setbacks which were not spared me during my period of struggle. Providence has had the last word and brought me success.

-Adolf Hitler, speech of 23 Nov. 1939


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It would be easier for the Devil to go to church and cross himself with holy water than for these people to comprehend the ideas which are accepted facts to us today.

-Adolf Hitler, 10 Dec. 1940, in Berlin


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The conception of the new Movement, whose fundamentals can be expressed in a single sentence: "The Lord helps those who help themselves," opposed this. That is not only a very pious phrase, but a very just one. For one cannot assume that God exists to help people who are too cowardly and too lazy to help themselves and think that God exists only to make up for the weakness of mankind. He does not exist for that purpose. He has always, at all times, blessed only those who were prepared to fight their own battles....

Providence has not led us along these amazing paths in vain. On the day that the party was founded I recalled that our nation once gained immense victories. Then it became ungrateful, disunited, sinned against itself. Thereupon it was punished by Providence. We deserved our defeat. If a nation forgets itself as completely as the German nation did at that time, if it thinks that it can shake off all honor and all good faith, Providence can do nothing but teach it a hard and bitter lesson. But even at that time we were convinced that once our nation found itself again, once it again became industrious and honorable, once each individual German stood up for his nation first and not for himself, once he placed the interests of the community above his own personal interests, once the whole nation again pursued a great ideal, once it was prepared to stake everything for this ideal, the hour would come when the Lord would declare our trials at an end.

If fate should once more call us to the battlefield, the blessing of Providence will be with those who have merited it by years of hard work. When I compare myself and my opponents in other countries in the light of history, I do not fear the verdict on our respective mentalities. Who are these egoists? Each one of them merely defends the interests of his class. Behind them all stands either the Jew or their own moneybags. They are all nothing but money-grubbers, living on the profits of this war. No blessing can come of that. I oppose these people merely as the 0 champion of my country. I am convinced that our struggle will in the future be blessed by Providence, as it has been blessed up to now.

-Adolf Hitler, in Munich, 24 Feb. 1941


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But he who dares to use the word "God" for such devilish activity blasphemes against Providence and, according to our belief, he cannot end except in destruction.

-Adolf Hitler, speaking about Jews and international "warmongers," on 04 May 1941, before the Reichstag


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I did not want this struggle. Since January, 1933, when Providence entrusted me with the leadership of the German Reich, I had an aim before my eyes which was essentially incorporated in the program of our National Socialist party. I have never been disloyal to this aim and have never abandoned my program....

Only when the entire German people become a single community of sacrifice can we expect and hope that Almighty God will help us. The Almighty has never helped a lazy man. He does not help the coward. He does not help a people that cannot help itself.

The principle applies here, help yourselves and Almighty God will not deny you his assistance.

-Adolf Hitler, in a broadcast from Berlin, 03 Oct.1941


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If the Providence has so willed that the German people cannot be spared this fight, then I can only be grateful that it entrusted me with the leadership in this historic struggle which, for the next 500 or 1,000 years, will be described as decisive, not only for the history of Germany, but for the whole of Europe and indeed the whole world. The German people and their soldiers are working and fighting today, not only for the present, but for the coming, nay the most distant, generations. A historical revision on a unique scale has been imposed on us by the Creator....

The next incursion against this homestead of European culture was carried out from the distant East. A terrible stream of barbarous, uncultured hordes sallied forth from the interior of Asia deep into the hearts of the European Continent, burning, looting, murdering-a true scourge of the Lord....

From the time when the Movement I consisted of seven men, until we took over power in January 1933, the path was so miraculous that only Providence itself with its blessing could have made this possible....

Our enemies must not deceive themselves-in the 2,000 years of German history known to us, our people have never been more united than today. The Lord of the Universe has treated us so well in the past years that we bow in gratitude to a providence which has allowed us to be members of such a great nation. We thank Him that we also can be entered with honor into the ever-lasting book of German history!

-Adolf Hitler, on 11 Dec.1941 before the Reichstag


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My fame, if Providence preserves my life, will consist in ... works of peace, which I still intend to create. But I think that if Providence has already disposed that I can do what must be done according to the inscrutable will of the Providence, then I can at least just ask Providence to entrust to me the burden of this war, to load it on me. I will beat it! I will shrink from no responsibility; in every hour which ... I will take this burden upon me. I will bear every responsibility, just as I have always borne them."....

Thus the home-front need not be warned, and the prayer of this priest of the devil, the wish that Europe may be punished with Bolshevism, will not be fulfilled, but rather that the prayer may be fulfilled: "Lord God, give us the strength that we may retain our liberty for our children and our children's children, not only for ourselves but also for the other peoples of Europe, for this is a war which we all wage, this time, not for our German people alone, it is a war for all of Europe and with it, in the long run, for all of mankind."

-Adolf Hitler, 30 Jan. 1942, in Berlin (note the prayer at the end of the speech.)


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May therefore God give us the strength to continue to do our duty and with this prayer we bow in homage before our dead heroes, before those whom they have left behind in bereavement, and before all the other victims of this war.

-Adolf Hitler, in prayer at the end of a radio address on 15 March 1942.


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I, for my part, acknowledge another precept which says that man must deal the final blow to those whose downfall is destined by God.

-Adolf Hitler, in an address to the Reichstag, 06 April 1942


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In my eyes, the year 1942 already has behind it the most fateful trial of our people. That was the winter of '41 to '42. I may be permitted to say that in that winter the German people, and in particular its Wehrmacht, were weighed in the balance by Providence. Nothing worse can or will happen. That we conquered that winter, that "General Winter," that at last the German fronts stood, and that this spring, that is, early this summer, we were able to proceed again, that, I believe, is the proof that Providence was content with the German people....

You do not realize what is hidden beneath these words in the way of human heroism, and also of human pain, and suffering, and we may say, often anxiety too, naturally, deathly anxiety on the part of all those who, especially for the first time, are placed before the trial of God in this highest court.

-Adolf Hitler, 30 Sept. 1942, in Berlin


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And today I stand by this same view. Fate, or Providence, will give the victory to those who most deserve it....

And when now, after 10 years, I again survey this period, I can say that upon no people has Providence ever bestowed more successes than upon us. The miracles we have achieved in the last three years in the face of a whole world of enemies are unique in history, especially the crises we very naturally often had in these years.

-Adolf Hitler, in Munich, 08 Nov. 1942


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The bomb which was planted by Colonel von Stauffenberg exploded two meters to my right. It seriously injured a number of my colleagues who are very dear to me; one has died. I myself am completely unhurt apart from a few minor skin abrasions, bruises and burns. I interpret this as confirmation that Providence wishes me to continue my life's mission as I have in the past.

Few people can begin to imagine the fate which would have overtaken Germany had the assassination attempt succeeded. I myself thank Providence and my Creator not for preserving me - my life consists only of worry and work for my People - I thank him only for allowing me to continue to bear this burden of worry, and to carry on my work to the best of my ability.

Once again I take this opportunity, my old comrades in arms, to greet you, joyful that I have once again been spared a fate which, while it held no terror for me personally, would have had terrible consequences for the German People. I interpret this as a sign from Providence that I must continue my work, and therefore I shall continue it.

-Adolf Hitler, speaking about the attempt to kill him, in a radio broadcast on 20 July 1944


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God the Almighty has made our nation. By defending its existence we are defending His work....

Only He can relieve me of this duty Who called me to it. It was in the hand of Providence to snuff me out by the bomb that exploded only one and a half meters from me on July 20, and thus to terminate my life's work. That the Almighty protected me on that day I consider a renewed affirmation of the task entrusted to me....

Therefore, it is all the more necessary on this twelfth anniversary of the rise to power to strengthen the heart more than ever before and to steel ourselves in the holy determination to wield the sword, no-matter where and under what circumstances, until final victory crowns our efforts....

In the years to come I shall continue on this road, uncompromisingly safeguarding my people's interests, oblivious to all misery and danger, and filled with the holy conviction that God the Almighty will not abandon him who, during all his life, had no desire but to save his people from a fate it had never deserved, neither by virtue of its number nor by way of its importance....

In vowing ourselves to one another, we are entitled to stand before the Almighty and ask Him for His grace and His blessing. No people can do more than that everybody who can fight, fights, and that everybody who can work, works, and that they all sacrifice in common, filled with but one thought: to safeguard freedom and national honor and thus the future of life.

-Adolf Hitler, in a radio address, 30 Jan. 1945


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Providence shows no mercy to weak nations, but recognizes the right of existence-only of sound and strong nations....

This Jewish bolshevist annihilation of nations and its western European and American procurers can be met only in one way: by using every ounce of strength with the extreme fanaticism and stubborn steadfastness that merciful God gives to men in hard times for the defense of their own lives....

We have suffered so much that it only steels us to fanatical resolve to hate Our enemies a thousand times more and to regard them for what they are destroyers of an eternal culture and annihilators of humanity. Out of this bate a holy will is born to oppose these destroyers of our existence with all the strength that God has given us and to crush them in the end. During its 2,000-year history our people has survived so many terrible times that we have no doubt that we will also master our present plight.

-Adolf Hitler, in a recorded radio address, 24 Feb. 1945

OzAtheist said...

crikey jonny, i've never seen so many hitler quotes in one place before.
do you have a link to where these can be verified or referenced?
I wouldn't mind posting them as a permanent page on my blog for future reference. Would that be OK with you?

Richard said...

OMFG Johnny... I am interested in that stuff and could not read all the quotes. Stunning job!!

Hitler was very careful to distinguish the Nazis from the German Communists. The latter were atheists, which was not a popular position in Germany. I understand that they were the closest political threat to the Nazis at the time. Both saw individuals as disposable.

To repeat what Johnny has been flogging: Atheism itself is not a world view, nor a political or moral stance, it's just an acknowledgment of reality: there is no god. But the implications of that correct understanding of the universe are huge: it is only from natural reality that rational ideas can be grasped.

Man I am impressed with that list of quotations. Johnny. Hey, get away from your keyboard and knock back a brew at the local pub sometime okay.

mountain king said...

"Ha you dolt you are using an argument of mine that you call illogical as a logical argument"
For some reason you escaped from the fact that the crusaders did what they did for their own benefit but insist that Newton would have become as great as he is wether he believed in God or not. btw, there are other great christians like Norman Borlaug that won the nobel prize for saving a BILLION lives, people love to condemn us for atrocities but they never see the good in religion

Is it a coincidence that many atheists were horrible people and that most christians were great?. Sure not every atheist is a mass murderer, Thomas Edison was an atheist and he invented the electric light bulb, However others have almost succeeded at doing the same thing, it's just that it was considered as "heresey", and how does he compare to Leonardo da vinci who was a christian?. Here are more great christians:

Augustinian Abbot who was the "father of modern genetics" for his study of the inheritance of traits in pea plants.

Carolus Linnaeus (1707–1778) He is known as the "father of modern taxonomy" and also made contributions to ecology. Natural theology and the Bible were important to his Systema Naturae and Systema Vegetabilium.

Edward Hitchcock (1793–1864) Geologist, paleontologist, and Congregationalist pastor. He worked on Natural theology and wrote on fossilized tracks.

William Whewell (1794–1866) A professor of mineralogy and moral philosophy. He wrote An Elementary Treatise on Mechanics in 1819 and Astronomy and General Physics considered with reference to Natural Theology in 1833.

John Bachman (1790-1874) He wrote numerous scientific articles and named several species of animals. He also was a founder of the Lutheran Theological Southern Seminary and wrote works on Lutheranism.

Robert Main (1808–1878) Anglican priest who won the Gold Medal of the Royal Astronomical Society in 1858. (The image is of Asaph Hall's 1879 Gold Medal of the RAS.) Robert Main also preached at the British Association of Bristol

Gregor Mendel (1822–1884) Augustinian Abbot who was the "father of modern genetics" for his study of the inheritance of traits in pea plants.

George Stokes (1819–1903) A minister's son, he wrote a book on Natural Theology. He was also one of the Presidents of the Royal Society and made contributions to Fluid dynamics.

Lord Kelvin (1824–1907) He gave a famous address to the Christian Evidence Society. In science he won the Copley Medal, the Royal Medal, and was important in Thermodynamics.

Georges Lemaître (1894-1966) Roman Catholic priest who first proposed the Big Bang theory.

Arthur Leonard Schawlow (1921-1999) American physicist, co-awarded the 1981 Nobel Prize for the development of the laser. He was a Methodist of Jewish ancestry.

Charles Hard Townes(born 1915) In 1964 he won the Nobel Prize in Physics and in 1966 he wrote The Convergence of Science and Religion.

Stanley Jaki(born 1924) Benedictine who won a Templeton Prize and advocates the idea modern science could only have arisen in a Christian society.

Allan Sandage(born 1926) An astronomer of Jewish ancestry who converted to Christianity late in life. He wrote the article A Scientist Reflects on Religious Belief and made discoveries concerning the Cigar Galaxy.

Robert T. Bakker(born 1945) Paleontologist who was a figure in the "dinosaur Renaissance" and known for the theory some dinosaurs were Warm-blooded. He is also a Pentecostal preacher who advocates theistic evolution and has written on religion.

Simon C. Morris(born 1951) A British paleontologist who made his reputation through study of the Burgess Shale fossils, one of which is pictured. He was the co-winner of a Charles Doolittle Walcott Medal and also won a Lyell Medal. He is active in the Faraday Institute for study of science and religion and is also noted on discussions concerning the idea of theistic evolution.


"So unless you are forthcomming with credible hard evidence for the existence of you particular god then stop wasting our fucking time!! "
OK. Then here goe your evidence:
The size of the universe:
"When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and one stars, which thou hast ordained; what is man, that thou are mindful of him?" (Ps. 8:3-4)

job 26:7 "he...hangs the earth upon nothing" while others thought that the earth is hanged by a turtle or the egyptians thought it had pillars, Job knew the truth all along

hebrews 11:3 says that the things that we see are not as they appear to be, this parallels the theory of atom and quantum physics. This can also be equated with dark energy and dark matter that is recently being discovered in physics, apparently the world isn't all material afterall, maybe heaven and earth were "framed by the word of god" and the matter which we see, although might be misleading, is not really what the universe is made of

Job 38:31 Pleiades and Orion as gravitationally bound star groups

The earth is controlled by the heavens: Job 38:33

At any time, there is day and night on the Earth: Luke 17:34-35

Earth began as a waterworld. Formation of continents by tectonic activity described: Genesis 1:2-9, Psalms 104:6-9, Proverbs 3:19, Proverbs 8:27-29, Job 38:4-8, 2 Peter 3:5

Importance of sanitation to health:
Numbers 19, Deuteronomy 23:12-13, Leviticus 7-9

The nature of infectious diseases: Leviticus 13:46


"I would say that Da Vinci was NOT a Christian"
Nonesense: http://www.nndb.com/people/813/000029726/
http://www.adherents.com/people/pd/Leonardo_DaVinci.html
prove he was a non-christian(or are you saying he was an atheist?)

Here are some quotes from Leonardo

"Fame alone raises herself to Heaven, because virtuous things are in favour with God. "

"Disgrace should be represented upside down, because all her deeds are contrary to God and tend to hell."

"To lie is so vile, that even if it were in speaking well of godly things it would take off something from God's grace; and Truth is so excellent, that if it praises but small things they become noble."

"one single subject, such as the human body; and then they want to comprehend the mind of God in which the universe is included, weighing it minutely and mincing it into infinite parts, as if they had to dissect it! "

"This earth, he wrote, is so perfectly ordained […] that it is impossible that a single mind should not have created it."

"O mighty and once living instrument of formative nature. Incapable of availing thyself of thy vast strength thou hast to abandon a life of stillness and to obey the law which God and time gave to procreative nature."

"Many will there be who will give up work and labour and poverty of life and goods, and will go to live among wealth in splendid buildings, declaring that this is the way to make themselves acceptable to God. "

One day, speaking of the eyeballs, he cried out, “O powerful action! What spirit can penetrate your nature? What tongue will know how to express that marvel? None, for sure. That is where human discourse turns to the contemplation of the divine." If the admiration of nature led Leonardo to believe in God, it also led him to love him and obey him, to the point of forgiving those who had offended him: "I obey Thee Lord, first for the love I ought, in all reason to bear Thee; secondly for that Thou canst shorten or prolong the lives of men."

one clue from biographer Giorgio Vasari describing his work on The Last Supper is instructive:

He also painted in Milan for the friars of S. Domenic, at S. Maria delle Grazie, a Last Supper, a thing most beautiful and marvelous. He gave to the heads of the apostles great majesty and beauty, but left that of Christ imperfect, not thinking it possible to give that celestial divinity which is required for the representation of Christ. The work, finished after this sort, has always been held by the Milanese in the greatest veneration, and by strangers also, because Leonardo imagined, and has succeeded in expressing, the desire that has entered the minds of the apostles to know who is betraying their Master. So in the face of each one may be seen love, fear, indignation, or grief at not being able to understand the meaning of Christ; and this excites no less astonishment than the obstinate hatred and treachery to be seen in Judas....

Continuing, Vasari has Leonardo explaining his thoughts to the prior of the church:
He added that he still had two heads to do; that of Christ, which he would not seek for in the world, and which he could not hope that his imagination would be able to conceive of such beauty and celestial grace as was fit for the incarnate divinity. Besides this, that of Judas was wanting, which he was considering, not thinking himself capable of imagining a form to express the face of him who after receiving so many benefits had a soul so evil that he was resolved to betray his Lord and the creator of the world.


Whether Leonardo was a devout student of theology during his life may be unclear, but Vasari claims it became more important to him later in life:
At last, having become old, he lay ill for many months, and seeing himself near death, he set himself to study the holy Christian religion, and though he could not stand, desired to leave his bed with the help of his friends and servants to receive the Holy Sacrament. Then the king, who used often and lovingly to visit him, came in, and he, raising himself respectfully to sit up in bed, spoke of his sickness, and how he had offended God and man by not working at his art as he ought. Then there came a paroxysm, a forerunner of death, and the king raised him and lifted his head to help him and lessen the pain, whereupon his spirit, knowing it could have no greater honor, passed away in the king’s arms in the seventy-fifth year of his age.

His only surviving sculpture, a joint work with notorious alchemist and occultist Gianni di Rustici, was of John the Baptist. (It now stands over an entrance to the Baptistery in Florence, unfortunately providing perfect target practice for the scruffy local pigeons.) Indeed, the Baptist theme is everywhere in his life and works: when he died in France in 1519, he looked upon only two paintings from his deathbed. One was the Mona Lisa, keeping her mystery to the very end, and the other his strange, dark painting of a young John the Baptist, whose enigmatic knowing smile is strikingly similar.

Surely this is somewhat strange for the allegedly great sceptic and atheist? Why should he, of all people, choose to die in the presence of such a religious painting? The puzzle is compounded by the fact that this work was never commissioned: Leonardo chose to paint it for himself.

source: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Leonardo_da_Vinci


"they would have made the discoveries weather they were christian or atheist"
They were divinely inspired. Michelangelo was also a believer
http://www.nndb.com/people/977/000024905/

"while claiming the higher moral ground which actually makes you duplicitous and far worse"
You used harsh words and cursed me several times yet you were insulted when i compared you to pol pot and cursed me even more. You're just showing me I was right about atheists all along
Cambodia was under Vietnam control remember that in April 1975, the invasion was flanked by Viet forces and no doubt about it. If no Pol Pot Cambodia would have long gone. Pol Pot stopped Vietnamese conquest at this stage. Look at the arm force and put into perspective than you know.
But yes, i realize i should be kind to any person whoever he is, even if he supports stem cell or the rights of homosexuals, afterall Jesus said "love your enemy". So i apologize for this, im just trying to warn you of the dangers of atheism. I know you think im just a deluded christian as Dawkins likes to think of us, but try to be skeptical of yourself as much as you're skeptical of christians
Again i apologize for comparing you to pol pot, im doing the same mistake the inquisitors did

"Atheism itself is not a world view, nor a political or moral stance, it's just an acknowledgment of reality: there is no god. But the implications of that correct understanding of the universe are huge: it is only from natural reality that rational ideas can be grasped."
read your words..."it's just an acknowledgment of reality", apparently we have here a positive belief in something "there is no god", and "that's the reality of it"
Your words just supported my point "atheism is not the mere absence of belief in a god". See refrences here: individualsovereigntist.com/2007/11/28/atheism-vs-agnosticism/

Well assume my brother likes teddy bears, i hate teddy bears. There's a contradiction here of our thoughts, that's why many conflicts occur. “He’s from the West Side,” I’d hear, oh THE WEST?, must be a vile person

Some West Side boys did not attack East Side boys. Some did attack East Side boys. There were no beliefs demanding an attack. The attack was caused by intolerance.

Some Christians attack and killed non-Christians. Most do not. Intolerance, not Christianity, caused that violence.

Some atheists attack and kill Christians. Stalin was pro-atheist and vehemently anti-theist, and he wanted to force that atheism on everybody. He killed millions of Christians, to further atheism.

Pol Pot, again an atheist who killed more than his fair share of Christians. So are we to conclude that atheism is the cause of atheist atrocities? Or that Christianity is to blame for Christian atrocities?

One explanation of atheist atrocities is that, it wasn’t atheism that killed those people. It was communism. Anybody who has done a fair amount of reading on the former Soviet Union, however, will tell you that many of those Christians killed were staunch supporters of communism. So, no, communism was not the cause.

The answer to intolerance is not in opposing any belief, atheist or theist. It is in respecting the right of individuals to choose their own beliefs.



You gave me tons of Hitlers speeches and writings regarding christianity. However, what about his actions as a christian?, one of his actions was to shut polish churches down and persecute jehova witnesses along with some other groups of christians. Also he killed 6 million jews, yet Jesus himself was a jew