Friday, January 11, 2008

proof of god

There will never be proof of God.

For if there is proof
...then where is faith?

If there is no faith
...then where is religion?

If there is no religion
...then where is god?

And what, afterall,
...is the point of god?

~Fiery


It is a common and favorite debating tactic of atheists to demand of the Christian proof that there is a god, evidence for a supreme being, something that will satisfy the rational, reasoning brain. There are even offers of monetary rewards for scientific evidence or proof of god’s existence:

The James Randi Educational Foundation has a One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge “to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event.”

GodsReward.com offers $100,000 for proof God exists and has extensive details about what does and does not constitute scientific proof and details the claims that have been submitted thus far.

I thought I remembered a prominent atheist (Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris) had also offered a reward for god, but couldn't find the link or remember any more details and in the five minutes I spent looking for it, I came across a very different reward.

Aus. $3 million dollar reward offered for a live and uninjured specimen of the Thylacine or Tasmanian Tiger. It’s funny, I have a book on Australia, published in 1964, by LIFE (before it became the mega corporate media monster it is today: AOL Time LIFE Warner) that refers to the thylocine as the Tasmanian Wolf (through convergent evolution it has many canine-like attributes). But for the Aussies, because its hind quarters are tiger striped, they went with Tasmanian Tiger. Good ole Aussies. :)

Now where was I? Oh yes, proof of God! How did I get onto Aussie Tigers? That's right, because the reward for a Tassie Tiger is actually greater than the reward for proving god exists! *snerk* And I was talking about proof that god exists because of the juxtaposition between proof and faith.

What is faith? "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"(Hebrews 11:1).

And why does the Bible say a person must have faith? But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. (Hebrews 11:6)

While looking for the Hebrews verse on faith, I came across these two articles discussing faith and the evidence for god.

The first: What is Faith? by Keith Sharp.

In his bit Keith asserts “Saving faith is not a blind acceptance of unprovable opinions. It is not based on feeling, emotion, or a "blind leap." It is conviction supported by evidence.”

So I’m thinking, hmmm, wonder what ole Keith has to say, what his evidence is, how convincing his conviction is? I pulled apart his article, was in the process of fisking it when I realized it was dull as dirt and could be summed up thusly...

Proof there is a God (according to Keith Sharp)
1- the universe
2- the Bible (which “not only tells me about God, it gives evidence to demonstrate that there is a God, that the Bible is the word of God, and that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.")

And I’m thinking oh come now Keith, ole boy! What specifically about the Bible proves all that? “Some of these powerful proofs are the harmony of the Scriptures, fulfilled prophecies both about ancient nations and about Christ, and the evidence Christ has been raised from the dead.

He got a different translation then I did.

So when an atheist says, "Prove there is a god." Keith replies, "Sure no problem. Look a tree! Look the Milky Way Galaxy! Look a cat! And check out this gnarly book divinely inspired by god himself." Uh huh. I guess I’ll be seeing everyone in church this Sunday. NOT! Unless it is to leaflet the cars with some atheist tracks from NormalBobSmith.com. Now that would be a good time!

The second article: Substance and Evidence: A Study on Faith by John Wright Follette.

My mind instantly turned that into John’s Right FullO’It- naughty Fiery! Obviously I'm approaching this one with an open mind! *snerk*

According to John, “There are three things which must be established and settled in any situation in which faith is to be exercised.”

Ok, good. Lists. Lists are good. They proceed logically.

“First, the object of our faith must be beyond our ability to achieve. If it were not so, faith would be unnecessary as human effort could accomplish the desired end. Natural impossibility is the atmosphere in which faith works.”

Right- so with faith, you want the impossible. Check. I want $1 million.

“Second, the unseen object of our faith must be hoped for through a yearning heart with a pure motive.”

As the driven snow, mate, as the driven snow! Of course in Minnesota we are often plagued by snirt so the purity part might be a bit tricky.

“And third, there must be a personal conviction that the object believed for is as real as if it was already attained.”

I know what $1 million is, and I believe with all my heart that it is real. Plus, I know exactly what I would do with it, oh please oh please!!!!!!

"Faith is that exercise of mind and soul, which has for its object things not seen, but hoped for. And instead of sinking under them due to their difficulty or uncertainty, it stands firmly under them and sustains their becoming reality.”

So I should start writing the checks now? Sounds to me like faith will drive you insane. It demands that you believe in that which is unreal and encourages you to act as if it is real.

My favorite quote from John concerns the faith it takes to walk on the water as Peter did. “We should never venture out upon the water until we have the divine "come" under our feet. We must listen for His voice, and once we have heard, we have substance upon which we can walk into the impossible.”

May you go forth with the divine “come” under your feet, may it be as a light upon your path.

22 comments:

Sean the Blogonaut F.C.D. said...

Fiery's been into the long island teas again.

Seriously, a good funny post.

Fiery said...

Thank ya kindly Sean! :D Always with the nice word, what a guy!

Richard said...

Does that last sentence mean God has a foot fetish? Is that why the Bible so often wastes space telling us how Biblical travelers got their feet washed?

The messages of all those faith fundies is the same as when I was a kid: faith isn't faith if you have any kind of knowledge that would make it so. Therefore, you MUST believe in and act on the unknowable and unprovable.

That raises the obvious question, "How can the preests and poops know what we should believe or how we should act?"

Even on their own terms they are a bunch of rotten frauds and looters --of human wealth and human spirit!

The religious may war against each other, but they will band together against the "arrogance" of anyone who is atheist, because nothing else so thoroughly challenges their whimsical, trust in faith.

OzAtheist said...

John Wright 'FullOfIt' answers almost seem like that of "The Secret". As "The Secret" puts it, all you have to do is 'Ask, Believe, Receive'.

Crazyman Bob said...

Great post Fiery!!

It has often been noted that a proof of God would be fatal to religion: a God susceptible of proof would have to be finite and limited; He would be one entity among others within the universe, not a mystic omnipotence transcending science and reality.

What nourishes the spirit of religion is not proof, but faith, i.e., the undercutting of man's mind.

Johnny said...

But for the Aussies, because its hind quarters are tiger striped, they went with Tasmanian Tiger. Good ole Aussies. :)
We also love alliteration, shit combine shortening of a word and alliteration...heaven good 'ole Tassie Tiger hahahahaha or should that be Tazzie Tiger hahaha you auzzies!!!!!

Fiery said...

Thanks Cman Bob- glad to know you still pop in here to check on things. :D

Fiery said...

Johnny-Originally had it down as Tazzie, but we've talked about the "double s" spells "zed" so figured better spell it correctly for the vernacular. ;)

Glad you found time to peak around my blog, dear, it's been a long time since I've seen you here.
:D

Q-Where in Tasmania does one find a Tasmanian Tiger?

A-Dunno, but I'll check the Map of Tassie. Look closely! Look very very closely.

T&A said...

I don't want Jebus coming on my, er...under my feet! That's gross! :) Great post. I think you may have been referring to Hitchen's offer of a $1,000,000 to anyone who could irrefutably prove to him that there is a moral action that only a believer could perform.

Richard said...

I like C-Bob's comment. If God revealed himself as a finite being, the fundies would probably ask God what supernatural being (one that has no specific identity) He believes in!

C-Bob said of God, "He would be one entity among others within the universe."

Of course that is the only way God could possibly exist. The Universe is everything there is. For God to exist He would have had to have some sort of Identity, i.e., identifying characteristics, or He could not be an entity. Further, as an entity He would instantly constitute some part of the Universe.

The faith of the fundies does not only require belief in the impossible and non-existent. It also requires that one hold the non-existent to be superior< to the actual!* That, they routinely imply, makes them 'superior' to the rest of us.

[*I just noticed, that is also there view with respect to abortion: they hold the potential human that is the baby as superior to the actual human that is the mother!]

King Aardvark said...

I don't remember where I saw it originally, but someone else on another blog was talking about religious faith requiring lack of proof, and the fundies agreeing. Somebody then pointed out that if, improbably, God did suddenly manifest himself in the world and put on a spectacular display, then all the atheistic scientist people would believe (based on evidence) that God exists, whereas the religious people would have their faith smashed.

Ah, the funny conundrums that apologists and theologians have to deal with.

Richard said...

Interesting King.A. I imagine that didn't give the fundies a moments pause.

Reg Golb said...

This whole topic is just stupid. When God reveals himself, like anything anyone has faith in, faith is no longer needed. It doesn't smash anything, it just makes faith unnecessary.
Seriously, too many LIT.

Fiery said...

What exactly is silly about this topic Reg?

Why *doesn't* god reveal himself? Why the smoke and mirrors show? Why the 2000 *year* wait????

Come on god, show yourself already!
We're waiting!!!

*snerk* That's not true, is it? We're not waiting. Because nothing in our lives has ever convinced us that there is anything to wait for.

You say too many LITs for us, I'd say not enough Science for you.

Reg Golb said...

Science. Where is your science?
You have been claiming that your atheism comes from reason.

Why doesn't God reveal himself? Your question is the answer. He is God. He does it because he wants to, because he can, because it is what brings him glory.

I am certainly convinced.

Poodles said...

"Why doesn't God reveal himself? Your question is the answer. He is God. He does it because he wants to, because he can, because it is what brings him glory."

Then he is a pompous asshole and I wouldn't worship him regardless.

Fiery said...

BWAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAH!!!!

Being in the closet brings him glory?

Hiding mamalian reptiles, massive insects, and dinosaur bones in fossils brings him glory?

Allowing evil like the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition, female circumcision and suicide bombing to be done in his name brings him glory??????

I'm hearing Dennis Leary, except this time he's singing,
"God's an Asshole-ee-ole-ee-ole.
God's the world's biggest Asshole!
A-S-S-H-O-L-E. EVERYBODY!!!!
A-S-S-H-O-L-E"

There's nobody there Reg. Go up on a mountain top, shout out FUCK YOU GOD STRIKE ME DOWN IF YOU DARE!!!!

Brrrrriiiinnggg
Brrrrriiiinnggg

I'm sorry the number you have reached has been disconnected and is no longer in service. Please check the number and try again.

Ain't nobody home in heaven, cause heaven just ain't there.

Psssst. Neither is hell.

Johnny said...

This whole topic is just stupid.

Stupidity something a christian like you would know a lot about.
It's about a billionth as stupid as your actual beliefs. FOOL the god you believe in is a cunt.

Richard said...

Glob's God cannot be a cunt, Johnny. He doesn't exist ;-)

I prefer cunts that do exist.

Fiery said...

Actually Richard,

When a fundy takes the bible as literally true that god described therein is a cunt. The fact that the Bible isn't true and every believer is just pretending to believe in the evil excresence described in their "sacred" book, doesn't make the pretend being any less of a cunt!

It's like saying Count Dracula was an evil monster. Yep, he was, doesn't matter that he only exists in the pages of a book.

I think you just object to the term because for you it describes a woman's private part. Aussies don't use the term that way.

GOD IS A CUNT!!!!!!

*snerk*

Richard said...

FINE! God is a virtual CUNT!

Fiery said...

omg!

OMG OMG OMG OMG!!!

Did Richard just concede a point?????

HOLY MARY MOTHER OF JEEBUS

RICHARD JUST CONCEDED A POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

omg omg. What do I do with this information???? Who can I tell? Who will understand the significance??? Do I or don't I call attention to it with its own seperate blog entry. Hmmmmmmmm.....

;)