Wednesday, April 11, 2007

if there is evil then there is a god. WHAT????

I have been reading the archives of a blog called An Exercise in Futility. http://anexerciseinfutility.blogspot.com/2007_02_01_archive.html

Tommy and Stardust had a lively discussion with Jason about atheism v. christianity and the offensiveness of bumperstickers that were in-your-face-fundamentalist.

At one point Jason made the comment...

"I will say, however, that evil in the world may allude to the existence of God. "

Actually, for me, the existence of evil is a point NOT in favor of the existence of god.

Please correct me if I'm wrong- the bible says that god is omniscient- meaning all-knowing and omnipotent- meaning all-powerful. I'm sure there's another omni that god is claimed to be, but I don't recall it for the moment, and I'm not sure it's relevent.

While I was reading Jason's comment it got me to thinking and I asked myself a question I had never heard before.

Imagine for a moment that you have the gift of foresight and you could see that the baby you have just discovered to be developing in your womb, would become in 20 years die and spend an eternity (a literal eternity not just a long time but an infinite number of years) in the torments of hell. Would you do it? Would you have your child? Would you wish an eternity of suffering on your offspring?

Knowing myself and how protective I feel of my children, I don't think I could do it. I don't think I could bring a baby into this world knowing that after living for however a length of time I could "live" with the knowledge that eternal suffering awaited. Better for the child never to have been born.

Back to the question. Would you wish an eternity of suffering on your offspring? I could not do it. I could not knowingly condemn my own offspring to eternal torment. I love my children, and I don't want them to suffer. Most parents don't want their children to suffer. (Isn't it said that I can't honestly say NO parent wants their child to suffer?)

But what about the genuinely evil people. People, who have caused misery to millions upon millions of people. In all of history, of all the most vile and evil villains who have ever had the misfortune to live. Even of them, I don't think they deserve an eternity of torment. Maybe they deserve to relive every moment of torment they have visited or caused to have visited on another human being, but more than that? An eternity of torment???

No, I don't think they should burn in a lake of fire for all time.

What kind of creature would pick up a ball of protoplasm and begin to sculpt it into it's own image knowing that billions of these new entities not even yet formed would spend a literal eternity in unending torment. What kind of creature wouldn't just scrap the whole project? It's your creation, why do you want any part of it to suffer? Why did you make it capable of suffering that kind of punishment? Why did you devise that sort of end to begin with? How could you create such a creature that DESERVES that? How does that NOT make you the most evil creature that has ever existed?????

18 comments:

tina said...

I agree with you. It just doesn't make sense for people to worship a god that that would do that. But remember, a lot of christians or whatever haven't even read the bible, they only know that jesus died for them and they usually learn everything from a preacher.

look_an_atheist said...

I know there were a lot of books of the bible that we never covered in church or sunday school. In fact the only time they were EVER noticed them was when I had to memorize the books of the bible in 4th grade.

I wonder if that isn't because so much of it is horrifying by modern standards- plagues, raping, slavery, stoning all ordered or carried out by the "benevolent loving father figure" god.

It's that type of stuff that is really hard to stomach.

I think it would be interesting to see the bible truly edited by the fundies so they only have the parts that they "really" believe in and take out the rest of the "hard to take stuff". Leave in the parts that prove jezus was loving and benevolent take out the "stone your child for disobedience" text. I wonder how much would be left. Probably just the top 300 verses used for most church sermons.

Dani said...

Evil could not exist if a good God didn't exist. For just like the absence of light is darkness, the absence of good is evil.

God is good and loving, but He gave humans a free-will to choose to love or hate, or do good or evil. God does not micro-manage our lives, nor does He force anyone to do anything. If we lived in a relative universe, good or evil, and love or hate would not even exist.

look_an_atheist said...

Nobody *NOBODY* deserves to suffer for all eternity. Any being who would create another knowing that they will suffer never ending torment is evil.

It's not just in the next life that people are "condemned" to suffer. Look what was ordained by god himself in the bible.

- god orders the killing of 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people (1 Chronicles 21).
- god also orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there.
- god orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value (Deuteronomy 3).
-god orders another attack and the killing of “all the living creatures of the city: men and women, young, and old, as well as oxen sheep, and asses” (Joshua 6).
-god orders the murder of all the people of Jabesh-Gilead, except for the virgin girls who were taken to be forcibly raped and married. When they wanted more virgins, god told them to hide alongside the road and when they saw a girl they liked, kidnap her and forcibly rape her and make her your wife!

-In 2 Kings 10:18-27, god orders the murder of all the worshipers of a different god in their very own church!

-In total God kills 371,186 people directly and orders another 1,862,265 people murdered.

Where is the good and loving god?

The god described in the bible is an evil blood soaked monster who, should he exist, deserves scorn not worship.

Dani said...

*NOBODY* deserves to suffer for all eternity? Are you sure about that?

Not even the rapists, murderers, child molesters or baby killers?

What about president Bush who has lied and deceived his country and caused thousands to die in an unjust war to serve his own selfish political agenda?

As for the verses you quoted: *NOBODY* is innocent. We are ALL born sinners deserving of death!

God has the authority to slay the nations who live in rebellion towards Him. God has the right to wipe out vile and wicked idol worshipers who reject Him and are filled with all sorts of abominations, violence and evil if He chooses to.

Isn't it enough that God LOVED you so much that HE gave His only Son to sacrifice His life so you don't have to suffer for all of eternity if you believe in Him?

The choice is entirely up to you - Eternity with God or eternity separated from God?

look_an_atheist said...

How is it that the innocent babes and children were also condemned to die. Fine, the parents told god to f-off and din't worship him. Did the suckling babe, the toddling todler, did they reject god. Nope. But he sure rejected them. Do they burn in hell for all eternity. Those innocent babies?

There are definitely evil people. Throughout history there are scores of examples of people who I wouldn't want to be with in the same country, let alone the same room. Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, pedophiles, satanists who sacrifice children and take communion from there still beating hearts. Yet none of these. NONE deserve never ending torment. I could see making them suffer the same as each one of their victims. Some of them would be there a long time. But never-ending misery. For all time. millions upon trillions of years of the most outrageous torment imaginable. That is WORSE than what each one of them did. NOBODY deserves that. Eternal punishment does not fit the any crime yet committed.

The biblical god is evil. Period.

Dani said...

God will take the souls of innocent babies and children to heaven with Him because He does not punish children for the sins of their fathers.

Where do you suggest all the evil people go to, if not to hell?

Should God reward people like Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, pedophiles, and satanists who sacrifice children for what they did by bringing them to heaven? If He did that then heaven would turn into hell.

If people hate God and reject Him should God force them to be in eternity with Him against their will? Would that be very loving?

No person on earth will go where they don't want to go once they die. Those who go to hell would rather be there than spending an eternity with God.

look_an_atheist said...

Dani said: "...He does not punish children for the sins of their fathers"

Well let's look at that shall we?

(Exodus 20:5 NIV) You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the lord your god am a jealous god, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me."

(Numbers 14:17-18 NLT)Please, Lord, prove that your power is as great as you have claimed it to be. For you said, "The LORD is slow to anger and rich in unfailing love, forgiving every kind of sin and rebellion. Even so he does not leave sin unpunished, but he punishes the children for the sins of their parents to the third and fourth
generations."


(Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children."

(Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT) "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told."

(Jeremiah 51:20-26) "You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and harioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says
the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of
rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD.


(Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT) If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will
kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)


(Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT) Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children.


(Deuteronomy 3:1-7 NLT) "Next we headed for the land of Bashan, where King Og and his army attacked us at Edrei. But the LORD told me, 'Do not be afraid of him, for I have given you victory over Og and his army, giving you his entire land. Treat him just as you treated King Sihon of the Amorites, who ruled in Heshbon.' So the LORD our God handed King Og and all his people over to us, and we killed them all. We conquered all sixty of his towns, the entire Argob region in his kingdom of Bashan. These were all fortified cities with high walls and barred gates. We also took many unwalled villages at the same time. We completely destroyed the kingdom of Bashan, just as we had destroyed King Sihon of Heshbon. We destroyed all the people in every town we conquered – men, women, and children alike. But we kept all the livestock for ourselves and took plunder from all the towns."


(Matthew 5:17 NAB) Jesus said, ""Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place."

Dani said...

Physical death and spiritual death are two different things. God does not punish children for all eternity for the sins of their fathers. If the wicked repent before they die, then God will also spare their soul.

Ezekiel 18:19-32 - “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
“But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord GOD, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?... When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. ... “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord GOD. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord GOD. “Therefore turn and live!”


--------------------

Jesus came for the Jews who were under the Law. Jesus fulfilled the Law by paying the penalty of death for us on the cross. We are no longer under the Law because we are saved by grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ, not by our works. There are two different covenants: the covenant of Law and the covenant of Grace.

"Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses." - Acts 13:38-39

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.” - Romans 10:4-5

If you want to really know the Bible, along with the true character of God, it is not wise to randomly pull verses out of context and come to a misinformed conclusion as to what is says. It’s good to also read the verses before and after, along with the entire text before you make judgments about the passages in the Bible.

But since you are an atheist you should remain consistent with your beliefs that there is no God, therefore you cannot criticize the motives of someone who doesn't even exist.

look_an_atheist said...

(Mark 7:9-13 NIV) And Jesus said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban' (that is, a gift devoted to god), then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."

The point I was making in the original post was this: Christians will sometimes "prove" there is a god by saying there is evil in this world, therefore there is a god.

Dani herself said, "Evil could not exist if a good God didn't exist."

I say a good god would NOT have created evil. I say it is evil to believe in a god who comits attrocities like the murder of innocents.

No, I do not believe in this evil god of Abraham. There is no evidence for his evil existence.

Saying "the bible says he exists" isn't good enough.

No proof=no reason to believe
Faith= the belief in that which cannot be proven.

And considering the length of quotes I provided, they were hardly out of context. Did he or did he not slaughter or order the killing of innocent children?

Belief in that kind of god is evil.

Dani also said, "But since you are an atheist you should remain consistent with your beliefs that there is no God, therefore you cannot criticize the motives of someone who doesn't even exist."

But you beleive he exists. What do you think of his motives?

Dani also said, "If you want to really know the Bible, along with the true character of God, it is not wise to randomly pull verses out of context and come to a misinformed conclusion as to what is says.".

Oh the irony. How can you ignore the countless examples of god ordained murder, rape, pillaging, and life destruction ordered or committed by god and still call him loving?

Dani said...

The verse you quoted from Mark 7 only proves that Jesus affirms the death penalty, which is a good thing. But that's a whole other topic.

God did NOT create evil. God is good. Evil exists because people hate God and live in rebellion towards Him, therefore they choose to do evil things. God's motives are pure and He has the authority to pour out His wrath on those who disobey Him and live wicked lives.

I recently started a post devoted to atheists like you as a place to present any questions or criticisms about the verses in the Bible.

If you are interested, I invite you to go here => Bible Questions from BigText.

Here is a quote from a fellow Christian in response to some the "evil" you and other atheists claim God does in the Bible:

Bob said...
"Well first off before I give some replies to what BigTEX has raised I need to just give a general statement in regards to this popular form of debunking the Bible. Really what it boils down to is that this guy doesn't know what he is talking about when it comes to the Bible. I think only when you are acting on a presupposition that Christianity is false can you reach some of the ridiculous conclusions people reach in trying to debunk the Bible. I just unreasonably hope BigTEX is actually reading the Bible himself and isn't just quoting these "discrepancies" from a web page or a book. I have reason to think that this is not the case but that these references are just from a "Bible contradictions" page where passages are hijacked out of context left and right.

Now in BigTex's Bible use in the passages he cites from Numbers and Deuteronomy it must be noted that these are not literal translations. They are modern NLT=New Living Translation this is the most loosey goosey translation of the Bible there is that can still be considered "Bible". The NAB is similar but not as loose.

Next again context is key. The people who are about to be conquered are being judged by God. They were a particularly sinful people. For example they worshipped Molech which required child (infant) sacrifice at the altar of Molech. Archaelogists have found mass pits at these altars filled with infant bones. This was a sinful people.

So far from poor people who just wanted peace these people deserved judgment. This may be one of the reasons that women who were not virgins were to be killed, they probably were involved in Molech worship. So really in only singling out the women who knew men it was a form of mercy. This was the just judgment of God on a sinful people group.

Thirdly on what basis can BigTex stand on to even say this is wrong?"...


As an atheist, what standard do you have that says what God ordained is even wrong or evil to begin with? I thought everything was morally relative in an atheists worldview?

Anyway - Thanks for letting me debate here with you. Hope to hear from you soon.

look_an_atheist said...

Dani said..."As an atheist, what standard do you have that says what God ordained is even wrong or evil to begin with? I thought everything was morally relative in an atheists worldview?"

http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~alatus/phil1200/RelativismObjectivism.html

According to the site above moral relativism is this:
"Moral Relativism: The view that what is morally right or wrong depends on what someone thinks. (To which the claim that opinions vary substantially about right and wrong is usually added.) We can think of this position as coming in two flavours:

(a) Subjectivism: What is morally right or wrong for you depends on what you think is morally right or wrong, i.e., right or wrong is relative to the individual. The 'moral facts' may alter from person to person.
(b) Conventionalism: What is morally right or wrong depends on what the society we are dealing with thinks, i.e., morality depends on the conventions of the society we are concerned with. The 'moral facts' may alter from society to society."

I hope the long quote didn't bore you. I really am not all that familiar with the term, though it has a fair amount of implied information in it's name.

One thing to remember about atheists is that the only thing "atheist" means is "without a belief in god". It doesn't define where a person gets their morals from, which politcal party they support, their views on drunk driving, premarital sex, child rearing, favorite movies, or favorite flavor of ice cream.

So- that being said. If you are asking me, where I get my morals from these 2 sum it up nicely.

Dr Yaron Brook, executive director of the Ayn Rand Institute has this to say, "The purpose of morality is to discover and teach the principles that lead to life, achievement, happiness, success, joy. There is only one means to discover and understand these principles: reason. A proper morality, one for living on earth, requires rationality and independence of soul, not faith and obedience to self-appointed interpreters of an alleged omnipotent being. A proper morality looks not to the supernatural but at man's nature and the reason why he needs values--and then defines the values he must reach and the virtues he must practice to reach them."


Peter Schwartz Chairman of the Board at the Ayn Rand Institute has this to add, "Such a morality begins with the individual's life as the primary value and identifies the further values that are demonstrably required to sustain that life. It observes that man's nature demands that we live not by random urges or by animal instincts, but by the faculty that distinguishes us from animals and on which our existence fundamentally depends: rationality.

With reason as its cardinal value, this code of individualism espouses fixed principles and categorical moral judgments. It demands, for instance, that the initiation of force--the antithesis of reason--be denounced and that an unbridgeable moral chasm be recognized between the criminal and the non-criminal.

Since life requires man to produce what he needs, productiveness is a moral value--thereby making moral opposites out of the industrious worker and the parasitic welfare recipient. Since life requires man to use his own judgment rather than submissively accept the assertions of others, independence is a moral value--making moral opposites out of the person (or nation) acting on his own rational convictions and the one deferring to the consensus of his neighbors (or the U.N.)."

look_an_atheist said...

oh, I followed your link to your site and I see that the there was an issue with biblical translations.

In the future I will use the Zondervan New International Version Study Bible instead of the lowly regarded NLT translation.

Um, about Mark 7- it says curse your parents get put to death, not kill bad criminals.

Dani said...

Ok - What standard do YOU go by to determine what's morally right or wrong?

Because what's right for me may not be right for you, and Hitler thought what he was doing was right - So do we just let society decide what is good or evil?

All throughout history man's nature has been proven to be wicked and the reason why he needs values is often irrelevant because each man defines the values he must reach and the virtues he must practice to reach them by his own standards.

Without an Ultimate Authority to determine justice, how do we ever agree on what is right?

BTW - The New King James Version is probably the most accurate (for future reference).

look_an_atheist said...

biblical translations-
ok- so the version you prefer is the NEW King James Version.

Do you believe in the inerrant word of god? And if so does it reside *only* in the NEW King James Version?

Dani said...

Yes, the version I prefer is the NEW King James Version because it is the closest to the original Greek and Hebrew. The NIV isn't bad either, it was the first translation I read and it was easy to follow.

Yes I believe in the inerrant word of God. I just think it's wise to compare translations to the NKJV because some of the wording in the other texts may have different meanings. For the most part, the story is the same, but the more modern the translation, the more loose certain words can get.

Here is a great website with all the translations which makes it easy to compare => BibleGateway.com

BigTex71 said...

I found it quite amusing that when Look an Atheist quoted passages in the Bible that deal with punishing children for sins of their parents, Dani then quoted contradictions in the Bible to disprove them.
Dani, all that does is show how the Bible is errant and full of contradictions. You're so silly! :)

Orion77 said...

Fuck, Dani has a rather large stick up her arse!