religious taint

We are all born atheist. A fortunate few go through their whole lives never having believed in a super-natural being or phenomena.

I was not so fortunate. I was raised Lutheran and taught to believe in heaven and hell, god and the devil, original sin, prayer, divine intervention, and constant supervision by an all-seeing being judging not only my actions but my innermost thoughts as well.

I was also taught that god allows bad things to happen to test my faith, but that I would never be given more than I could handle. Bad things happen because the devil is at work in my life, but if I pray hard enough, anything is possible- if I have faith.

To this day, I find myself occassionally struggling with various fading remnants of my childhood indoctrination.

* I've found myself wishing, waiting, and hoping for someone to come to my rescue.
* If too many good things happen, I wonder how bad things will get in order to even it out.
* I find myself holding back from enjoying the really big things in life because I don't want anyone to know how much they mean to me, that way they won't be taken away from me.
* If I tell someone that I hope they are having a great day, I sometimes worry if that will jynx it for them. Then if they actually have a bad day, it is somehow my fault.

Some of these thoughts seem to be holdovers of the "Lutheran Guilt" that is taught so thoroughly and even made fun of in regional jokes. The reality is an ongoing battle with the idea that good is bad and bad is good.

Having reasoned my way to being an atheist, with no doubts lingering in my mind, I find myself frustrated with the emotional taint left behind by almost 25 years of indoctrination.

god is impossible

This summation is taken from Harry Nads' blog Does the Christian God Exist? In his comments section for his first post he has a marvelous summation of the case AGAINST god. It appears to be a paraphrase from Positive Atheism, a site I will be checking out more thoroughly, from an article entitled Why the Christian God is Impossible by Chad Docterman.

I would love to hear any and all thoughts on this as I found it quite fascinating.


~~~~~~~

What did God do during that eternity before he created everything? If God was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely? God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete--it needs nothing else. We humans engage in activities because we are pursuing that elusive perfection, because there is disequilibrium caused by a difference between what we are and what we want to be. If God is perfect, there can be no disequilibrium. There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible.

But, for the sake of argument, let's continue. Let us suppose that this perfect God did create the universe. Humans were the crown of his creation, since they were created in God's image and have the ability to make decisions. However, these humans spoiled the original perfection by choosing to disobey God.

What!? If something is perfect, nothing imperfect can come from it. Someone once said that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree, and yet this "perfect" God created a "perfect" universe which was rendered imperfect by the "perfect" humans. The ultimate source of imperfection is God. What is perfect cannot become imperfect, so humans must have been created imperfect. What is perfect cannot create anything imperfect, so God must be imperfect to have created these imperfect humans. A perfect God who creates imperfect humans is impossible.

The Christians' objection to this argument involves freewill. They say that a being must have freewill to be happy. The omnibenevolent God did not wish to create robots, so he gave humans freewill to enable them to experience love and happiness. But the humans used this freewill to choose evil, and introduced imperfection into God's originally perfect universe. God had no control over this decision, so the blame for our imperfect universe is on the humans, not God.

Here is why the argument is weak. First, if God is omnipotent, then the assumption that freewill is necessary for happiness is false. If God could make it a rule that only beings with freewill may experience happiness, then he could just as easily have made it a rule that only robots may experience happiness. The latter option is clearly superior, since perfect robots will never make decisions which could render them or their creator unhappy, whereas beings with freewill could. A perfect and omnipotent God who creates beings capable of ruining their own happiness is impossible.

Second, even if we were to allow the necessity of freewill for happiness, God could have created humans with freewill who did not have the ability to choose evil, but to choose between several good options.

Third, God supposedly has freewill, and yet he does not make imperfect decisions. If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should likewise be perfect. Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions. Why would the originally perfect humans do differently?

The point remains: the presence of imperfections in the universe disproves the supposed perfection of its creator.

God is omniscient. When he created the universe, he saw the sufferings which humans would endure as a result of the sin of those original humans. He heard the screams of the damned. Surely he would have known that it would have been better for those humans to never have been born (in fact, the Bible says this very thing), and surely this all-compassionate deity would have foregone the creation of a universe destined to imperfection in which many of the humans were doomed to eternal suffering. A perfectly compassionate being who creates beings which he knows are doomed to suffer is impossible.

God is perfectly just, and yet he sentences the imperfect humans he created to infinite suffering in hell for finite sins. Clearly, a limited offense does not warrant unlimited punishment. God's sentencing of the imperfect humans to an eternity in hell for a mere mortal lifetime of sin is infinitely more unjust than this punishment. The absurd injustice of this infinite punishment is even greater when we consider that the ultimate source of human imperfection is the God who created them. A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible.

Consider all of the people who live in the remote regions of the world who have never even heard the "gospel" of Jesus Christ. Consider the people who have naturally adhered to the religion of their parents and nation as they had been taught to do since birth. If we are to believe the Christians, all of these people will perish in the eternal fire for not believing in Jesus. It does not matter how just, kind, and generous they have been with their fellow humans during their lifetime: if they do not accept the gospel of Jesus, they are condemned. No just God would ever judge a man by his beliefs rather than his actions.

The Bible is supposedly God's perfect Word. It contains instructions to humankind for avoiding the eternal fires of hell. How wonderful and kind of this God to provide us with this means of overcoming the problems for which he is ultimately responsible! The all-powerful God could have, by a mere act of will, eliminated all of the problems we humans must endure, but instead, in his infinite wisdom, he has opted to offer this indecipherable amalgam of books which is the Bible as a means for avoiding the hell which he has prepared for us. The perfect God has decided to reveal his wishes in this imperfect work, written in the imperfect language of imperfect man, translated, copied, interpreted, voted on, and related by imperfect man.

No two men will ever agree what this perfect word of God is supposed to mean, since much of it is either self- contradictory, or obscured by enigmatic symbols. And yet the perfect God expects us imperfect humans to understand this paradoxical riddle using the imperfect minds with which he has equipped us. Surely the all-wise and all-powerful God would have known that it would have been better to reveal his perfect will directly to each of us, rather than to allow it to be debased and perverted by the imperfect language and botched interpretations of man.

One need look to no source other than the Bible to discover its imperfections, for it contradicts itself and thus exposes its own imperfection. It contradicts itself on matters of justice, for the same just God who assures his people that sons shall not be punished for the sins of their fathers turns around and destroys an entire household for the sin of one man (he had stolen some of Yahweh's war loot). It was this same Yahweh who afflicted thousands of his innocent people with plague and death to punish their evil king David for taking a census (?!). It was this same Yahweh who allowed the humans to slaughter his son because the perfect Yahweh had botched his own creation. Consider how many have been stoned, burned, slaughtered, raped, and enslaved because of Yahweh's skewed sense of justice. The blood of innocent babies is on the perfect, just, compassionate hands of Yahweh.

The Bible contradicts itself on matters of history. A person who reads and compares the contents of the Bible will be confused about exactly who Esau's wives were, whether Timnah was a concubine or a son, and whether Jesus' earthly lineage is through Solomon or his brother Nathan. These are but a few of hundreds of documented historical contradictions. If the Bible cannot confirm itself in mundane earthly matters, how are we to trust it on moral and spiritual matters?

The Bible misinterprets its own prophecies. Read Isaiah 7 and compare it to Matthew 1 to find but one of many misinterpreted prophecies of which Christians are either passively or willfully ignorant. The fulfillment of prophecy in the Bible is cited as proof of its divine inspiration, and yet here is but one major example of a prophecy whose intended meaning has been and continues to be twisted to support subsequent absurd and false doctrines. There are no ends to which the credulous will not go to support their feeble beliefs in the face of compelling evidence against them.

The Bible is imperfect. It only takes one imperfection to destroy the supposed perfection of this alleged Word of God. Many have been found. A perfect God who reveals his perfect will in an imperfect book is impossible.

A God who knows the future is powerless to change it. An omniscient God who is all-powerful and freewilled is impossible.

A God who knows everything cannot have emotions. The Bible says that God experiences all of the emotions of humans, including anger, sadness, and happiness. We humans experience emotions as a result of new knowledge. A man who had formerly been ignorant of his wife's infidelity will experience the emotions of anger and sadness only after he has learned what had previously been hidden. In contrast, the omniscient God is ignorant of nothing. Nothing is hidden from him, nothing new may be revealed to him, so there is no gained knowledge to which he may emotively react.

We humans experience anger and frustration when something is wrong which we cannot fix. The perfect, omnipotent God, however, can fix anything. Humans experience longing for things we lack. The perfect God lacks nothing. An omniscient, omnipotent, and perfect God who experiences emotion is impossible.

~Chad Docterman via Harry Nads

Boogers, Seeds, and Possibilties

I was driving through Fargo, ND minding my own business, on the way to the library actually, when I happened to glance to the left and see the Red River Women’s Clinic.

Downtown Fargo is working hard at renovating the old buildings, in an attempt to revitalize the community. They have redone a good portion of this block and I smiled with appreciation at the pretty new façade they have put on the building.

Noticing the people out front I think, “Huh, there’s a line. The women's clinic must be busy today.”

Wait a minute. Those 4 women aren’t there for birth control. Those signs they are holding aren’t “take a number” and wait your turn. Those are protesters!!!!!!

I nearly slammed on my brakes in the middle of traffic.


“PRAY TO END ABORTION” their signs say. I was laughing with rage and smiling with fury.

Four fundies standing on the street murmuring their prayers to make the world a better place.

I was originally on my way to the library.

Now all I could think of was finding a parking space and confronting fundies.

Their goal is to stop the abortion.

Who will pay the medical bills for the pregnancy, birth, delivery? What about after the baby is born? How much do they care what happens then? Are they prepared to help financially with the burden of raising the children whose lives they "save"? Do they plan to adopt or foster any of these precious children?



I know there is little point in talking to fundies.

Especially the type of non-thinkers who will actually stand outside a women's clinic and say their rosary and pray to the saints to stop the slaughter of the innocents.

I know that no matter what I say to them, they won’t change their minds. But I could not simply drive by and allow them to think that my silence in any way condoned what they were doing.

I wonder how many women drove by intending to stop in and kept going.

I am sure the fundies count each one as a success.

But the clinic provides more than abortions.

It provides free and low cost birth control for people who can’t afford it and routine gynecological exams, pap smears and the like. Yet these fundies would rather a woman’s cervical cancer go undetected if it will also prevent another woman from terminating an unwanted pregnancy.



Pro Life = PRO SLAVERY

An embryo is a POSSIBILITY not a baby.

It is a seed and it can be cut out of the body with no further grief than that of having to remove a wart, a tumor, or a cyst.

Why should the meeting of one egg with one sperm condemn a person to the death of their entire future?

Going through 9 months of pregnancy, each new symptom a constant reminder of one mistake, one night that you will pay for the rest of your life.

Having your body slowly twisted out of shape, contorted and distorted- in most cases beyond recovery to its original state.

Giving birth after hours upon hours of torment, starting and stopping as your body prepares to expel its new master from its body

Deciding if you should now give up this wrinkly piece of flesh that carries your genetic code for someone else to raise.

Keeping the squalling mass and raising it even if you are emotionally unprepared for parenthood.

Raising a child when you were unable to prepare financially for the situation.

What kind of life is this for a child?

If a person is honest enough to say, “I’m not ready to have children” why force the issue upon them????

For crying out loud there are too many parents out there breeding irresponsibly and they say they WANT children. Should society not instead be bloody grateful that some intelligent few will say “Hell no, I can't raise a child properly!”?????

No woman should be condemned to a life of servitude because of a booger sized clump of cells.

“Doc, I’ve got a tumor and I need it removed.”

open season on reg golb (attention whore).

reg golb (attention whore) pulled his head out of the sand to drop this little turd in the pool back on an old post, Just look at Fiery and Poodles, the only blogs I read in this community, they are a study in duplicity.

Duplicity- Deliberate deceptiveness in behavior or speech.

The irony of being called duplicitous by one of the most illogical, irrational, annoying fundies I have ever had the misfortune to meet has sent my irony meter straight into the red zone.

The only blogs you read in this community, reg golb (attention whore)? Do you mean my own personal circle of blogger friends, or the blogging atheist community as a whole?

You reg golb (attention whore) are the liar. You pretend to be rational, while spouting the most irrational bullshit on the planet. You claim to only read a few blogs, but keep turning up on various atheist blogs long after your welcome has worn out, like a particularly virulent strain of herpes.

Why do you read atheist blogs???? Especially if you think they are "duplicitous". Oh, I know why. Because none of your fundy friends give a shit about you or your "thoughts". But if you go to an atheist blog, and shit in our pool, you get all sorts of attention.

I would love to see links to christian blogs you regularly post to reg golb (attention whore).

Defend your assertion reg golb (attention whore) with links to duplicitous behavior on my part AND Poodles part.

Provide the links reg golb (attention whore) or delete my blog link from your favorites menu and stop coming back. Period.

If you don't know how to provide actual links, google it.

health update: Deadly Disease Targets Atheists

I am the unfortunate bearer of some rather horrifying information.

The CDC (Center for Disease Control) has issued a health advisory warning to all atheists in or visiting America. They are urged to avoid the southern states, and specifically places with warm water lakes, hot springs, and even dirty swimming pools

The reason for the warning is the unexpected peek in occurences this year. Between 1995 and 2004 there were 23 known cases, an average of a little more than 2 per year. This year, though there have been six cases reported already and more anticipated. The first symptom is a headache that will not go away. Typically misdiagnosed as meningitis, further symptoms include a stiff neck and fever. As the disease progresses hallucinations and behavior changes are typical.

The best way to prevent infection is to wear nose clips when swimming or playing in shallow water.

The disease, Logos Cephalis is caused by an amoeba that enters the body through the nasal passages and slowly eats its way into brain tissue. It is always fatal and no measures taken have slowed its progress in humans. From time of exposure, the disease runs its course in two weeks, leaving families bereft of their loved ones.

The cause is an ameoba, Naegleria fowleri, which lives in fresh water lakes and enters the body through the nasal passages and feeds on brain tissue.

Christians, especially fundamentalist and evangelical types are particularly resistant to this amoeba as they do not have sufficient grey matter to sustain the amoebas. Fanatical Muslims and other extreme religious people also show shocking resistance to this microscopic brain sucker.

The CDC is calling for all fundies to volunteer to help with warm water testing and various cleanup efforts as their unique brain make-up renders them almost perfectly invulnerable to this new threat. Scientists and rational atheists are urged to steer clear of any water teeming with believers as the amoeba become frenzied by the lack of functioning brain tissue.

For a full report, please see this AP article for full details.

Again- this ia health advisory from the U.S., to all atheists and rational people (but i repeat myself), swim with noseplugs!
_________________

"respect" my beliefs? I don't think so.

IQ ADVISORY: The following quote contains grosteque assumptions, glaring inaccuracies and complete falsehoods that may be damaging to your intellect. The following information is provided for reference purposes only, i.e. I didn't have a link. Read thoroughly at your own risk, otherwise jump to the bottom to avoid shock at the stupidity and to prevent potential brain damage.

Gratitutde

The first step toward getting rich is to convey the idea of your wants to the formless substance. This is true, and you will see that in order to do so it becomes necessary to relate yourself to the formless intelligence in a harmonious way.

To secure this harmonious relationship is a matter of such primary and vital importance that I will give some space to its discussion here. I will give you instructions which, if you follow them, will be certain to bring you into a perfect unity of mind with God.

The whole process of mental adjustment and atunement can be summed up in one word: gratitude.

First, you believe that there is one intelligent substance from which all things proceed. Secondly, you believe that this substance gives you everything you desire. And, thirdly, you relate yourself to it through a feeling of deep and profound gratitude.

Many people who order their lives rightly in all other ways are kept in poverty by their lack of gratitude. Having received one gift from God, they cut the wires which connect them with Him by failing to make acknowledgment.

It is easy to understand that the nearer we live to the source of wealth, the more wealth we shall receive. It is also easy to understand that a soul that is always grateful lives in closer touch with God than one who never looks to Him in thankful acknowledgment.

When good things come to us, the more gratefully we fix our mind on the Supreme Power, the more good things we will receive - and the more rapidly they will come. The reason for this is simply that the mental attitude of gratitude draws the mind into closer touch with the source from which the blessings come.

Wallace D. Wattles

You may be asking yourself, this is such obvious tripe, why are you even bothering to post that crap here? I guess the reason this particular piece of vomit caught my attention is for that very reason, that it is tripe. This material was e-mailed to me as a "thought for the day" from the weight-lifting fitness newsletter I belong to. How this is supposed to inspire me to work on sculpting my triceps, I don't think I will ever fully understand.

It is, however, the perfect example of how much American society as a whole expects a person to submit to the idea of a god (sorry..."formless substance"). Even though not everyone believes in the same higher being or even a higher being at all, it is assumed, no it is demanded, that one act respectfully towards everyone who does believe.

Most Americans will stand around and snicker if they hear racist remarks or derragatory comments about homosexuals. But if a person stands up and says, "Anyone who believes in a 'formless substance' has their head so far up their arse, that they shouldn't be allowed to breed." Well, there would be an absolute riot. How dare you treat people that way? You may not share my beliefs, but you have to respect them.

Do I? Do I really have to "respect" them? I might have to grudgingly acknowledge your right to hold those beliefs, but "respect"? No, no poor deluded fundy. I am under no obligation to "respect" your beliefs. For clarity's sake, something the fundies shudder at the thought of, let's take a quick look at the meaning of "respect"

respect: deferential or high regard, esteem.
deferential: courteous submission to the opinions, wishes, or judgments of another.

Well with those two definitions under my belt I can certainly see why fundies demand "respect". It's that tricky little word "deferential" that they are really asking for- "courteous submission".

I think it is the repugnant notion of "courteous submission" that turns so many christian/atheist discussions into "raving invective" instead of civillized debate.

Richard- guest blogger

Surprise Richard! You get to be my first guest blogger!

Telmeimwrong has asked Richard,

God said don't bear false witness.
I decide to pay my taxes
Is that wrong? (since it was formed for the wrong reason)

"But if both sides are honest (such as Johnny)" are you saying that I am not honest?

Richard said "You have no answers as to how to live morally, how to think through such moral issues as we are presently discussing, or moral conflicts in your own life with the people around you. You have no basis that says, “This makes sense and I must therefore act on it! By what standards will you judge yourself and your life on your deathbed? To formulate those standards of morality, a proper way of knowing Truth must be understood and performed intellectually, unwaveringly." Expound on this. To me, it flies in the face of reason. What is truth then? What is the proper WAY of knowing it?




Here is Richard's response.

Telmeimwrong you have raised three good points, the answers to both are related, and may be difficult for you to deal with. My response is not in any way intended to harm your sensibilities, any more than might be the case in pointing out that a map has been misread.

1. "Taxes" is easy. All of us, are under the considerable coercive power of the state initiating force against us. Pay them! You should not go to jail. However, without taxation you could buy the same services much more cheaply than at the price the state provides. (Even the police, courts and military could be paid for by means other than taxation, and still remain impartial means of dealing with transgressions by citizens and foreigners). Thus the right reason to pay taxes is not a matter of honesty, but of opening your wallet to state approved confiscation. The state’s job is to protect you from theft of your property, today it is the thief. See my discussion of the nature of a thief, next.

2. "Honesty" is not a matter of not lying, not stealing or not committing fraud. Those are the outward manifestations of a deeper intellectual form of dishonesty. Honesty is recognizing that unreal things truly are unreal! The liar wants to rewrite reality in order to sway someone else's judgment away from what is real. The thief or con artist is pretending that he has some sort of right to what he has taken. Usually they do it through some sort of rationalization, such as "they have lots of money and won't miss it", "they are only rich cause they got all the breaks, and no-one will give me a break" etc etc. Although their new possessions are not their own, they blank out of mind the fact that their ownership is unreal. Thus their dishonesty is fundamentally intellectual.

This is precisely the case, through phenomenal social and parental pressure, with religionists. At one level or another, usually before their minds have matured, their mentors teach them that the unreal is real. The same mentors embed their unrealities in all sorts of very real things, as authority figures, making themselves all the more believable. Rare indeed is the *child* who can resist that. (See the poem in my next comment by William Blake)

Nonetheless some children do resist at some level. Although I was an altar boy, I was always troubled by the ‘miracle’ stuff. As a teenager I had resigned myself that such things must happen, but just not in my experience, so I had best believe in God. By 18, reading "The Source" by Roland Michener, I began to seriously doubt. At 35 yrs of age I grasped (recognized) the unreality of gods and religion and with great joy, became an atheist. Joy, because I was no longer under the oppressive scrutiny and manipulations of this quixotic power called God. The World was just what it was, and wonderful!

So, I can now say, "yes" at that fundamental level, with all the deeper complications I mentioned earlier by which homosexuals became homosexual, you are being intellectually dishonest particular in the context of religion, as was I. The consequences of that dishonesty affect countless areas of your life (as they affected mine). Harder still, your peers accept them so that they feel normal and right to you and make you feel included socially. They are not honest... not any more than it is right for today's Muslims or yesterday's Christians to murder heretics/apostates.

3. I do not know what you mean when you say my comment "flies in the face of reason". I think the question is asked too soon. Reason and truth must be understood before it can be answered. I can only say Morality can and must be developed through secular reason (there is no other kind), not faith, and move to your next sub-questions.

Truth is obtained through one’s five senses, and by Reason. Reason is a major component of the branch of philosophy named Epistemology, a 'big' word (that is, "very abstract") that can be hard to get one's mind around (it was for me). Epistemology, in short, is the study of how Men can know the truth, what makes the truth so, and also what errors can be made in trying to get there. It is a very large and complicated field...

Truth is the recognition of Reality. Notice its meaning is closely related to the meaning of Honesty. The moment a mind allows unreality to occupy a space in its understandings, it will run into contradictions. Each contradiction will butt up against real, related issues, time and time again. (This you are experiencing, and are here responding to very well) E.g.Calling a witch doctor to deal with your child's diabetes, by chanting, burning herbs and waving talismans, will result in your child's death. So will a policy I have seen on store windows, outside homes and on church signs in the Caribbean that says "Let go and let God". (Think of Jehovah’s Witnesses and blood transfusions!) Nope, the child needs insulin (a transfusion); s/he needs adults who recognize reality if the child is to live: the child's pancreas is not producing insulin, and that is what must be addressed.

I cannot possibly explain epistemology to you in any significant way (this is already 800 words!). It is a field you would have to investigate yourself. The most I could do is recommend material that would require many months of reading. I have spent thousands of hours on it in the last 20 years, and am still no expert.

Understanding epistemology is highly rewarding because it provides one with protection from harm, whether in politics, ethics, science, economics or in social interaction. This is because reason is man's only tool of survival --man does not survive by sharp teeth or claws, by speed or strength, nor even by camouflage. Knowledge of epistemology ought to be the goal of any liberal education, and many of its elements should be taught before a child leaves grade school.

I often sign off e-mails with the following, and it seems appropriate here.

sincerely,
Richard

Reason and the philosophical principles upon which it depends are sought by rare minds, who grasp that day to day life is not a barrier to that study but the reason for it. @2001 by Richard @2001

opening a can of worms

At first I certainly wasn't going to post about this, but as it has generated a modest amount of interest on the Open Forum, I'll bring the topic to the fore and give everyone a go at it.

If you pop back to the open forum 5 post, you will note that the subject of homosexuality has come up, specifically the idea of if it is a choice and whether or not it has consequences.

As it currently stands, I am waiting to hear back from telmeimwrong(you're wrong!) a list of the unfortuante consequences that has only been hinted at but not delineated.


~~~~~~~~~~
Before I am able to properly discuss this with you, telmeimwrong (you're wrong!), I would like to know what you consider to be the "unfortunate consequences of being a homosexual". By not including that information, you have rather left us guessing as to what you "might" mean, which really forces us to build straw men and knock them down.

So let's open with that one and proceed from there.

Mark Cahill e-mail & his proof of god

Just to make sure Cahill and I are on the same page, I e-mailed him and asked him "what is faith?". He replied...

The best definition of faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

What you really want to distinguish is between blind faith and a calculated faith. You don’t blindly believe in Australia.

You look at evidence to make that decision. The same thing is that you don’t believe Australia is in the northern hemisphere. The evidence doesn’t lend you to believe that. So you look at evidence to make your decision.

You do the same thing with God. You take a look at the evidence and see if it is there. If you believe in no god, then you take a look at the evidence to see if it backs up your belief system.

So as you can see, the search is always for truth. I never look for something to believe in. I search for the truth.

Keep searching for the truth. You will find it.

Faith, evidence, truth. Tied together to look rational.

CHAPTER ONE

Many people believe there is no God because they are convinced that science has fully explained how our universe came to be.

What scientist on the planet claims ANYTHING is *fully* explained let alone the origins of the universe?

How is it that we can predict the precise day of a full moon or an eclipse, or determine whether to expect a violent thunderstorm or a fresh snowfall? Where does lightning come from, or a brilliant rainbow?

SCIENCE- Science allows us to do these things. Yet Cahill implies that god is providing these answers. I can think of a few meteorologists who wasted a lot of time in school learning to interpret weather data when maybe they should have been in church learning to hear god's voice.

So if everything man-made has a creator, designer, artist, or orderer behind it, why would we not think that there is a Creator, Designer, Artist, and Orderer behind the universe?

Logically, we know that there cannot be an unpainted painting, an unsculpted sculpture, an undesigned design. That just doesn't make sense. And it makes much less sense for us to base our eternal destiny on something that we know is not reasonable.

Something from Nothing -> Big Bang
Cause and Effect -> First Cause
Evidence of Design -> Blind Chance
Moral Law -> Mindless, random, chance processes



I cannot do it.

I cannot continue to read this tripe and and reinvent the wheel debunking it. I have seen nothing that has not been addressed by Dawkins, Smith, and the others.

I also owe you an apology for an appallingly boring couple of blog entries.

Mark Cahill

One Heartbeat Away: Your Journey Into Eternity

DEDICATION
This book is dedicated to Truth.
If you search for it, you will find it.

Irony- 1) The use of words to convey the opposite of their literal meaning.
2) Incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs.
3) Dedicating a book of false assumptions and baseless conclusions to Truth.

INTRODUCTION
We are all one heartbeat away from death. Where will you be in 300 million years?

300 million years from now I will be in the same place I was 300 million years ago.

What is the purpose of our existence? Many people think it is just to go to school, party a little, find a job, get married, have kids, attend sporting events, watch their hair turn gray (or turn loose), retire, play golf, and die...Wouldn't it be important to find out where you are gong after you die, and for your family to join you there someday?

I am horrified that Cahill's answer to the purpose of existence is exclusively concern about the life after death. Not about producing anything of value, or making a difference in this life, or leaving the world a better place, but only about himself and his family and their life AFTER they die. Focus on your death and what happens afterwards. What about this life? What about making this life meaningful and purposeful? What about working towards the things you value most now?


Oh- I see, none of that matters, only getting to heaven matters.

He uses statistics gathered by the Barna Group. whose ultimate aim is to partner with Christian ministries and individuals to be a catalyst in moral and spiritual transformation in the United States.

No potential for bias or misinterpretation of statistics in this organization is there? Let's see what they have to say:
- 8 of 10 Americans believe in some sort of afterlife.
- 79% agree that "every person has a soul that will live forever, either in God's presence or absence."
- 1 in 4 adults admits that he has "no idea" what will happen after he dies.
- Two-thirds of atheists and agnostics accept the existence of an afterlife.

He then goes on to sum up Hindu, Jewish, Islamic, Buddhist, Atheist, and New Age beliefs in the afterlife.

"Although we may not realize it, we all have faith in something. In fact, you place your faith in many things every day. You have faith each time you drive that other drivers will stop at red lights. You have faith that the chair on which you're sitting will continue to hold you. Every time you fly, you exercise faith that the pilot is not suicidal and planning to crash the plane."

Faith. He tosses that word around like it is the only way to describe human thought. He uses it as if it is synonmyous with rationality, knowledge, judgment, reason, evidence, experience.

What is faith, to a christian?

Faith- 1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony. 3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.* Hebrews 11:1-3 NKJ

Faith 1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seens was not made out of what was visible. NIV

Faith So the Lord said, “If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you. NKJ

Faith If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it will obey you. Luke 17:6 NIV

Why both translations? Because that crap is confusing enough one time, at least if it is rephrased from a slightly different angle it increases my "understanding".

So what do I "understand" about faith? That it is about day dreams (hopes) and imagination (things not seen) and if I have enough of it I can grow silk worms in the ocean. Riiiight.

How about knowledge outside the christian "faith". Let's try reason.

Reason is the faculty that identifies and integrates the material provided by man's senses.**

I don't use faith when I drive. I use my senses to watch for others around me, including morons that run red lights. I use my mind to make reasoned decisions about road conditions, other drivers, my own vehicle.

When I approach a chair, once again- senses- does it look like a chair capable of supporting me. How does it compare to chairs that I have experienced in my past. Does it have at least 3 legs positioned appropriately to not tip me on my ass when I sit on it? Do a faith check. Nope, not a lot of wistful thinking going on in my brain when it comes to chairs.

If I were to fly, I would research the company- Do they have a good reputation for reliability? Is there any reason to believe or evidence to support concern for the pilot's capabilities? I guess how much I look into it, depends on how paranoid I am being.

When I read tripe like Cahill's I can feel my mind glazing over, the rational part starting to shut down, lose focus. But when I pull back, look at what is actually being said, THINK about the issues he brings up, it becomes one gigantic WTF????

It all comes down to the faith thing. The desire for things hoped for, believing in the unseen. My mind does not accept that as a rational approach to life.

And while I was researching the faith stuff.... check this out...

Hebrews 6:4-6 NIV It is imposssible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Hebrews 6:4-6 NKJ 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Looks like fallen christians are fucked. Where's the forgiveness there? Is it just me or does the christian god look for reasons to throw you on the fire? How is an eternity of punishment a just response to the mistakes made in less than 100 years of living??????? Seriously- over react much????

Can you imagine how fast a child would be taken from a parent who beat their child every day of their life for stealing a candy bar as a 3 year old? Isn't that at least partially equivalent to hell?

50 lashes with Daddy's belt for stealing that snickers. Every day. For the rest of your life.

At least the belt would stop when you are dead. But with god? Oh no, death brings no relief. The beating continues for all eternity.

* New King Jammes Version
** Objectivism: the Philosophy of Ayn Rand

So much for the Introduction.

born again attempt # 3

About five days ago, I got a call from my fundy neighbor, "Do you have a minute? I'd like to talk to you." So I went.

Guess what he wanted to talk about?

Jeebus. Or more specifically his key concern was "Do you believe in a deity?"

I wonder if he figures that calling a supernatural being a deity prevents confining it to human terms like Yahweh or Allah or Apollo. Maybe he was leaving open the possibilities. I'm not sure.

I said, "I really don't think that is any of your business. Why do you want to know?"

He said, "Every time you come over here, you turn off the radio station."

He plays a christian talk radio station 24/7 and it is my contention that he does so to keep his mind focused on the lord and to keep himself from drifting away and doubts. The radio is pro-creationism, constantly has messages from Answers in Genesis, anti-abortion and anti-homosexuals. Basically it is all fundy all the time. Drives me batshit, so I've taken to bringing over a cd of music, any music, just to have something else playing in the back ground.

I said, "Ah. Well, I find the radio to be particularly distracting. It makes it very difficult to concentrate on the people that I have come to see because all I can hear is that droning away in the background and I can't hear what people are saying to me. So I bring my own music which acts as white noise. Much more polite to the people I'm with."

He was quite disappointed by my answer and tried a different tactic. "Do you believe in evolution?"

I gave a disbelieving snort and said, "Of course, don't you?"

He said "no." I looked at him like he was an odd get and sensing that evolution was not going to be a weak point with me he changed the subject yet again.

"Don't you believe that your kids should have the best chance at an afterlife? How can you deny them that?"

I said, "That's Pascal's Wager."

confused look

I said, "The challenge, that there might be a god so better safe than sorry you might as well believe in it."

more confusion...

I looked him square in the eye and said, "Do you believe that my children will burn in hell for the choices I make."

He began backpeddling immediately, "Well, now, I don't know, I was just thinking that it's not fair to them..."

And I interrupted. I said, "Do you believe in hell Ken?"

"Yes, of course" he said. I said, "And you're ok with that?"

He said, "Oh come now who are we..."

And I said, "No, don't give me that 'we're not supposed to judge god' crap, Ken. You know the difference between right and wrong, don't you? Don't you?"

He said, "Yes of course."

I said, "No one deserves to be tormented for all eternity Ken. No one. Think about it, not one year, or ten years, but for the rest of all time. Utter torment, anguish, despair. Who deserves that? Who are you not to stand up and say, 'That is FUCKING horseshit! No one should burn in hell'?"

Long pause....He said "That's the price they pay."

I said, "Ken, let's think about this. God is omnipotent, omniscient and all powerful, yes? And he picked up the clay and formed it in his own image and just before he breathed life into its nostrils he knew all that was to come. That there would be billions upon billions of these creatures and most of them would suffer for all eternity in a hell he created just for not believing in him. For the sake of the worship of a few billion of these creatures, billions more would spend all time in hell. Why? Why did he go through with it Ken?"

Long pause...He said, "Well what do you think happens after you die, nothing?"

I said, "That's right, we go back to the same place we were before we were born. No where. It didn't bother us before birth, I doubt we will care much after we are dead."

Long pause...He said, "But without god people would live selfishly."

I said, "Give me one example of how people would live selfishly. How do I live selfishly Kenny, what's in it for me to live that way?"

He said, "Well of couse, you'd live for yourself and your children."

I said, "How would I live selfishly that wouldn't harm me or my children or my friends, my loved ones, my neighbor?"

Long pause...

Still pausing...

He said, "I guess there's nothing more for me to say, I can see you've made up your mind." He tilted his head to the side, gave me a wink, a smile, and said, "I'll be praying for you."

"Oh, well thank you very much." So I left.

I don't think that conversation went the way he expected.

I rather think he was hoping to get me to cry, admit what a miserable sinner I am, show me the path to the lord.

I don't think any conversion conversation has ever taken such a right hand turn as that for him.

That was about 5 days ago.

Tonight he has brought me a book. It is called One Heartbeat Away by Mark Cahill.

I reposted by giving him George H. Smith's book Atheism: The Case Agaist God.

I said, "I will read yours, if you will read mine."

He took it and left.

I better get it back.

Stay tuned and you'll get a chapter by chapter report of the book. If it doesn't make my brain turn to tapioca.

the fundy has left the building

Ummmm, apparently our fundy couldn't take the heat and got the hell out of Dodge.

He not only deleted every comment he made on my blog and Poodles Rule's blog, he also deleted his own blog.

Weird.

Buh Bye little fundy. Play nice on the other blogs.

fundy in the house

Call the exterminator.

Well blogger friends, we've got a fundy. An honest to no one, word twisting, bible thumping fundy. I have no idea if he's around long term or not. He's been stalking Poodles Rule and apparently followed me over from Atheist Rants, her blog.

*sigh* For an example of his work, please see this post over there Getting Caught Up it starts with stem cell research and degenerates into atheism is a religion.

He says atheism is a religion because

"*you regularly read, opine, and study the arguments of atheism
*the supernatural being is yourself, you worship you
*You believe that You are smart enough to learn enough to convince yourself that you have a belief of zero in something :)"

Currently he's over on my post called homeschooling and statistics and wants to know what indoctrination is.

So why is this fundy getting a post all his own? No, it's not to stroke his little ole ego. It's to let you know this is a no-holds barred cage match. You got something to say to this fundy, let him have it. BigTex (and I hope you are still out there)- that means you can let fly with as many elbows as you want.

Have at him!

homeschooling and statistics

King Aardvark said...
Off topic, but Zeno has a post about homeschooling right now. It's not really about homeschooling in general and is really attacking a right-wing nut who wants to do away with the public school system, but it was kind of interesting. Just thought you should give it a look.


King Aardvark- I'm not entirely sure that Sousa is hoping to do away with public school.

That being said, I think that public school is seriously flawed and needs radical improvement. No Child Left Behind has crippled educators and made it impossible for them to effectively teach anything but to the lowest-common-denominator and towards those damn yearly tests.

As for Zeno's post he quotes Sousa, then responds, so I've inserted a few of my own comments.

Sousa: Homeschooling may not be for everyone, but there are certainly indicators that it works well for most and extremely well for some.

Zeno: After the peroration, would it surprise you to learn that the rest of Sousa's opinion piece is devoted to explaining how unusual and extraordinary homeschooling students and families are? He must have a very curious notion of “works well for most.”

Me: Sousa wasn't saying that homeschooling works for most of America, it works for most homeschooling families. If it didn't work, they'd stop doing it. I would love to see information from homeschooled students themselves to see if they are happy with the experience, to see if they felt adequately prepared for adulthood.

Sousa: The families of homeschooled children are clearly different from those of traditional schoolchildren. Some 97 percent of homeschooled children live in married couple households; the comparable number for public school students is 72 percent. Nearly 88 percent of homeschooled parents continued their own education beyond high school; less than 50 percent of the general population has attended college.

Zeno: Okay, homeschooling families are something less than typical. Sousa, however, is keen to promote the practice.

Me: Homeschooling usually involves dropping down to single-income status. That's not easy for most people to do and thus tends to determine who is capable of even affording to homeschool. That being said, I belong to several yahoo groups with single moms making a go of homeschooling some with homebased businesses. As for level of education, I would say that most people with just a high school education don't feel like they know enough to teach their children at home. At least that is what I have heard from some of them. Of course Sousa is promoting homeschooling, he sees good results from it.

I don't know King A. I'm not really sure what Zeno's problem with Sousa is. Zeno is a math teacher at the junior college level. Yet he doesn't mention if he has ever had homeschooled kids in his class, if he felt that any or none were ever adequately prepared.

Homeschooling is very individualistic. Everyone does it for slightly different reasons and there is certainly no universal results achieved, methods used, or reasons for homeschooling.

Yes, there are a lot of fundamentalists out there in the homeschooling world. Yet there is a growing number of christian secular homeschoolers. Wrap your mind around that dicotomy! They seperate their christianity from the classroom and even teach evolution.

On the other hand, not all do. My mate works with a guy who was homeschooled and his Mama taught him that dinosaurs were a trick perpetrated by scientists to disprove god. Or some such twaddle like that. Unforunately for her, he was a dinosaur buff and didn't buy into her religious fantasy.

The statistics game is a tricky thing, it doesn't really accomplish much at the end of the day. I would rather see testimonials reported and personal experiences shared than numbers quoted in or out of context.

As for winning the spelling and geography bees of course homeschoolers will brag. How do public schools fare on a world wide level in math, science etc...? It is embarassing when you see how far down on the list the United States always ends up. There is something wrong with public schools. Sending your child there is a crap-shoot at what they will be exposed to and whether or not they will learn anything at all. Homeschooling is an option. Some public school teachers are very VERY threatened by this.

I went back for my 5 class reunion several years ago and talked with one guy had become a highschool science teacher. He was horrified that I was homeschooling and said he absolutely disagreed with my decision to do so. I gently told him we'd have go agree to disagree on that particular subject.

pascal's wager and medicine

Back in my post called why do atheists keep harping at christians?

Verndigger has come back and answered some of our questions regarding his comment.

The summary of the situation is as follows:

Russ: ... it is immoral to be tight-lipped when a child is allowed to die from a routinely curable affliction because of its Christian Science parent's faith...

Verndigger: if it is just as immoral to be silent when that same child dies under care of the medical, IN SPITE of the 'routinely curable' cure.

Fiery Ewok: I think it would then depend on cause of death-
medical negligence- immoral
honest medical error- regretable
careless medical error- immoral

In response to my comment Verndigger has posed what seems to me to be Pascal's Wager concerning modern medicine.

Verndigger: ...would not the same criteria apply to other healing methods? such as various alternative methods, whether naturopath, homeopathy, or whatever healing method someone chooses ?...

Verndigger: ...CS'ers do not 'sit back and wait..', or 'refuse treatment', they are actively working for the healing, as I said before, in the way they know has worked for them and thousands of others, previously....

His comment was significantly longer than that and available if you follow the link above to the original post.

It seems to me that the difference is that modern medicine helps billions, where Christian Science, according to Verndigger, has helped thousands. Those aren't great odds when you are dealing with the life of a minor below the age of consent. For an adult to choose CS methods, it is just that- their choice. For a child to have imposed upon him or her, the parent's decision to use prayer and CS methods only or prior to medical care- that is immoral.

the system and the phoenix

I was reading this on one of my yahoo groups: freethinking_unschoolers

The same place I found the Steven Wright list. The difference is this one definitely didn't make me laugh.

I've spent my whole life just trying to survive in the system.

I was an abused child, I was a racial minority, I was public schooled, I am
now a corporate cog.

Do my past and present contribute to my tendency to remain in survival mode? I think so. I dunno. Is it just part of the human condition?

...I see these parents all around me who are loving and really do have the best interest of their child in mind, but they are training their children to
survive in the system. We've all been trained to do this, and it's only just
barely working. Or maybe it's not working at all.

How does one break down the system and survive at the same time? Or is it
really just best to get up a half hour earlier (like a good German would) to
wash the dishes rather than argue about them in court?

Miss V.

Another commentor during the discussion had this to add...

My personal belief is that the only hope is the complete destruction
of this culture and an awakening to new spiritual understanding
coming out of the ashes as people pick themselves up and start to
rebuild the world.

Miss L.

This is where our world is at. To see some of my own thoughts confirmed by complete strangers- (I am really new to this group). To hear that the only solution that they can see is to have the world as we know it obliterated so that a new civilization can be re-born in its ashes.

How do you fight the injustices out there? How do you preserve your personal freedoms when those in power demand that we yield them for the sake of national security? How do you keep your children safe while you fight the good fight?

Or do you fight at all?

the triune god of atheists

Well Makarios has lashed out at reason again. I had a fit of morbid curiosity so I popped over to his blog and what to my wondering eyes did appear but this piece of….tripe …. If you want to make your head explode, read it at it’s source.

The triune god of Atheism

For those of you too impatient to wade through his fundy brand of bull shit to find out just what exactly Rod, in his finite wisdom, considers the atheist's triune god to be- let me blow his punch line. The atheists triune god is [are you ready? …isn’t the suspense just killing you?] The triune god of atheism is Science, Pride and Intelligence. Once again that’s Science, Pride and Intelligence.

*groan*

Unlike last time with Rod’s post, I am not going to quote the whole thing. It was 4 pages long at 12 point font for cripes sakes. YIKES!!!! To call attention to his idiocy I’m putting his comments in bold this time.

I’ve been thinking about the enormous amount of faith that it takes to maintain one’s atheistic belief system.

Once again Rod

Atheism = lack of belief in god a related corollary to that is
Atheism = lack of faith in god

Ask any Atheist, who’s been posting on a blog, to give the reasons for what he believes, to give an explanation for the hope s/he has in Atheistic philosophy and that person will disappear like a puff of smoke; he’ll drop right off the radar. They’ll even delete their own posts just to avoid any questions requiring a validation of their faith.

Now get ready guys, I’m about to go up in a puff of smoke. I’m also likely to drop right off the radar and start deleting posts. Get ready!!!!
Here I gooooooooo……
****POOF!!!!****
"I’m sorry sir, we’ve lost the signal.
She appears to have dropped off the radar…"
*DELETE….DELETE….DELETE*
"Her blog is vanishing Sir!"
...
....
.....

NOT!

Well, since I’m not going anywhere, let’s see.

What do I believe. #1 There is no god.
That’s right Rod
There is no god.
Oh sweet Clementine,
Does that rhyme?

I believe that YOU want there to be a god, Rod. There isn’t.

God/gods/supernatural beings were mental constructs that humanity evolved to deal with reality and our increasingly complex role in it.
See The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind
By Julian Jaynes
[If you haven’t read it in its entirety Rod, then don’t bother trying to refute it]

The rest of my beliefs are all personal and not affiliated with Atheism, but as Rod ASSUMES that Atheism is a complete belief system, I’ll address two of those beliefs as well. But they are MINE not necessarily those of any other atheist.

What do I believe. #2 Existence exists.

That’s right Rod. There is a universe. It’s right here. It is all that there is. Just the universe. The universe contains all of reality. If it exists, it is a part of the universe. If there is a god (there isn’t) he would be a part of the universe. That is the definition OF the universe- All Existing Things. If god isn’t a part of the universe, then he doesn’t exist. If he is a part of the universe, he couldn't have created it.

See Chapter 1: Reality in Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand
By Leonard Peikoff
[If you haven’t read at least the first chapter in its entirety Rod, then don’t bother trying to refute it]

What do I believe. #3 Principles of Morality are a product of cognition and not of feeling. They are also not relative but objective in nature.

That’s right Rod. Humans don’t need a vindictive, petulant, jealous, invisible sky daddy to tell them how to live their lives and to forbid amoral behavior. Wrong is wrong, regardless of the bible’s stance on the slaughter of innocents, forced marriage of a rape victim, stoning children, and other god ordained attrocities.

See Chapter 7: The Good in Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand
By Leonard Peikoff [If you haven’t read at least the seventh chapter in its entirety Rod, then don’t bother trying to refute it]

Continuing on It can’t be any other way of course. Even Dawkins et al. admit that there isn’t any proof that life accidentally came from non life.

Pardon me Rod, is god alive? If he is alive, he exists, see belief #2. If he is not alive, that would seem to fall into the realm of non life. How can non life choose to create life?

Other than that, I am not going to defend evolution. I’m not a scientist and there are whole websites not to mention numerous scientists dedicated to the defense of evolution.

Check this out. Rod says…My goodness! What a strange way for people who see themselves as reasoned and logical to behave. “No, it isn’t observable, repeatable or verifiable, but I believe in IT.”

Who in the world are these people that Rod is referring to… Christians maybe? And what is this IT…God? Well it could be. Fundamentalists try to use reason and logic to prove/defend the Bible and God and when challenged they say they will believe in it even if the atheist says it is not observable, repeatable or verifiable.

However, Rod is actually talking about Atheists. And the IT he is referring to is the mysterious triune god of science, pride and intelligence. [BigTex, here is a church you could start]

Go back and take a look at that quote and then let’s take a look at what Rod means…

Rod is saying that atheists believe science is not observable, repeatable or verifiable.
Rod is saying that atheists believe pride is not observable, repeatable or verifiable.
Rod is saying that atheists believe intelligence is not observable, repeatable or verifiable.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

- Atheists place their faith in Science to provide for them answers and direction.
Atheists = no faith.
For shame, looking to science for answers when there is clearly such a better alternative.

Sally, did your teacher really tell you that bats are mammals? Well my dear, let’s see what the bible has to say about that…Leviticus 11:13-19. Nope, clearly a bird. God says so. And he should know, he created them.

Sally, stop trying to feed that garter snake worms. The bible clearly says that snakes eat dust. Genesis 3:14

- Atheists place their faith in their Pride to keep them emotionally afloat.
Morons say duh? This one is self-explanatory to rational human beings, i.e. not Rod.
Strangely enough an atheist's self-worth is not based on "the meek shall inherit the earth".

- And Atheists especially place their faith in and worship their Intelligence to provide them with a sense of security and belonging. … Their sense of belonging arises from grouping together and talking about how unintelligent non Atheists are.

TILT…TILT… Does not compute….The atheists are grouping together and talking about non Atheists. Stone ‘em!! I’m not going to refute this one, you already know how full of bs it is, so I won’t insult your intelligence by walking you through it.

Good grief the whole post could be deleted on that basis. But I don’t want to give Rod the satisfaction of deleting a post.

He goes on and on bashing atheists and their worship of intelligence claiming that all moral ills are because of this worship of ours... He also includes 7 repeats of the phrase “On this chunk of sand Atheists build their philosophy of life.” I think by repeating it endlessly Rod thinks that will make it true. Atheists do not have and never will have a universal philosophy of life. DUH!

See if you can read his post in its entirety without your head hitting the keyboard, smacking yourself on the forehead, groaning out loud, or getting the shakes from the sheer irrationality of it.

God save us from unthinking fundies.

Atheists- Would You Die For Your Belief?

Well- I'm on assignment from Sean. He asked me to take a look at this and see what I had to say about this piece of fundamentalist tripeAtheists - Would You Die For Your Belief?

My comments are in bold because I didn't want to give Makarios the satisfaction of having the darker font.

Atheists - Would You Die For Your Belief?

Atheism is a lack of belief in any god, goddess or other supernatural being.

It’s not so far fetched to imagine, sometime in the future another Atheist Totalitarian attempt to put an end to Christianity, to close religious schools, to board up Churches or turn them into factories or warehouses.

I’m guessing here that he is referring to communism- which is a political philosophy and not an atheist “belief”. To be an atheist, does not mean to be a communist. Atheists can have any number of political beliefs- a few examples of which are- libertarian, republican, democrat, constitutionalist, and oh yes- communist or even fascist….

In the absence of historical observation, Dawkins and Harris wannabes shiver with anticipation at the thought of such a utopia. It’s not such a stretch to visualize millions upon millions of Atheists towing the party line for their “Dear Leader.”

This is just plain offensive and designed to stir up in christians the fervor he is projecting on atheists. In the incomplete list of political beliefs I mentioned, how many of people holding those ideals would want to “tow the party line for their ‘Dear Leader’?” Well we’ve seen fascists march in goose step for their beloved father figure, but I’ve never seen republicans do it, or libertarians for that matter.

I read Sam Harris’ book The End of Faith, I don’t remember him ever stating in that book that he wanted to set up an Atheist Totalitarian government. I haven’t read any of Richard Dawkins’ books, but somehow I doubt Totalitarianism is on the menu. If I’m wrong about this- please let me know!

My guess is that this “utopia” that Dawkins and Harris are imagining, hoping for, possibly even shivering in anticipation of is a world freed from superstition. A world where everyone approaches reality with a thinking, reasoning brain. A world where morality is NOT based on the threat of burning in hell for all eternity (a truly sadistic notion). A world where there are no more wars for doctrinal differences. A world with no more honour killings for a woman’s perceived sexual transgression.

The Bible tells us that there is going to come a time when someone, someone who is voted into power will make a valiant attempt to put an end, once and for all, to Christianity and it’s followers.

I think it is the fundamentalist Christians who shiver in anticipation of just this event- doesn’t this signify the nearing/commencing/starting of the rapture??? I’m not trying to be facetious here, are not Christians eager for the rapture?

There are, however, two problems:
- How do you get rid of all those pesky Christians? Are you, Atheist, willing to go that far? Think about it! Because I’ll tell you right now, killing us is the only option to putting an end to the thoughts and actions of we who love Jesus. Taking our children and putting them into reeducation programs won’t be enough.

I wish I knew the debating terms. [Note to self, learn them!] I know this falls into one of the categories.

I will take a stab at describing the problems I see in it without that knowledge.

This question assumes the totalitarian type regime complete with reeducation programs. It also assumes that atheists consider the slaughter of christians and the forceable removal of their children to be a viable option.

There might be atheists out there who would pursue just such a government. There are certainly Muslims out there who would love to do away with all Christians. There is even a Christian movement out there to establish a theocracy right here in America.

Is it just me, or does it seem like he is shivering in anticipation of being a martyr for jesus? Once again, not trying to be facetious. It really comes across that way.

And

- What if the world leader who wants to put an end to Christianity isn’t an Atheist?
What if Christianity isn’t the only thing that annoys him? What if that list includes Atheists, Jews, and adherents to any belief system except his own?

The book of Revelation in the Bible says that at some point in the future, a world leader is going to demand not just the allegiance, but the WORSHIP of every individual.

What if the world leader that is spoken of in Revelation is a religious person with a religious agenda?

Well let’s think about that. He is suggesting that a totalitarian regime will attempt to form and eliminate any Christian, atheist, Jew…for the sake of simplicity why don’t we call them Nonbelievers.

Oh wait. That situation is currently happening in the world. And what are the Christians, atheists, Jews and other nonbelievers doing? Fighting against it. Nonbelievers standing shoulder to shoulder fighting and dying to prevent the totalitarianization of our country.

What if the heads of Atheists and Christians wind up on the same chopping block?

What are we sheep that we are passively lined up waiting for this?

Dawkins et al would like to do away with Christians. Centuries of experience show how those who have met Jesus will react.

There is a difference between “do away with” and “desire a world without”. Doing away with suggests action- a deliberate extermination. The possibility of martyrdom. Obviously not the way to go.

But what about you, Atheist? What if someone comes along who wants to do away with you because you hold to Atheist beliefs?

Well- There are a swarm of fundamentalists I have read on blogs who are very eager to condemn atheists to an eternity of hellfire and damnation. Some even talk of wanting to stand by the throne of judgment and watch and laugh.

As for in this world, if someone or some group comes along that is upset by a lack of belief in their god, I imagine atheists won’t be the only ones they are upset at. Atheists won't be the only ones this regime will attempt to enslave and wipe out. And even if we were- We would fight back. It is what any reasonable being would do when threatened with death.

Suppose you were given three days to decide > Convert and live, or hold to your beloved Atheism and die a horrible death.

First of all, this assumes that we lost the war and are apparently prisoners.

Second, there are always other options. Give me liberty or give me death. Doesn’t have anything to do with a lack of belief in god, but a political ideal of freedom.

. Are you so devoted to your cause that you’d say, “Do your worst to me. I hold the truth of atheism in my heart.”

The “cause” that would be fought for is not atheism but freedom. The freedom to be what you want. To believe what you want. To live your life the way you want. Sounds a lot like America to me.

. Is Atheism so real and precious to you that it’s worth dying for?
. Are you so convinced of it’s accuracy that you’d say, “Here I stand, I can do no other.”

The FREEDOM to be an atheist is real and precious and worth dying for.

. Does Atheism give your life such meaning and context and purpose that a life without it is not worth having?
. Have you derived such peace from this belief system and are you so certain of it’s worth that you’d be tortured to death for it?

The FREEDOM from god makes every day precious as we are not longing for death so we can be with god. We’ve got one chance at happiness- this life. And this life is precious and worth fighting for and dying for.

Or will you decide that it’s not such a big deal after all? Will you ‘change your mind’ and save your skin?

I don’t know how individuals would decide in the twisted scenario that he has invisioned. I imagine some will choose to "convert" and live and continue the fight another day, some will martyr themselves on the chance of inspiring others in freedom's cause, and some might choose to die rather than live in such a horrific world.

And if that's the case, isn't it possible that if being an Atheist is not worth dying for in those circumstances, it’s not worth wasting your time over now either?

You believe in god. You believe he knows everyone’s hearts. Do you really think he will fall for Pascal’s Wager and accept the worship of someone with his fingers crossed?

There’s a wonderful book by D.C. Talk called “Jesus Freaks” - Albury Publishing, Tulsa Oklahoma. The content is made up of historical accounts of Christian Martyrdom from ancient times to the present day. If you want to know what purpose and calling and a relationship with Jesus look and feel like in the face of death, it’s a good read.

There is a wonderful book by Leonard Peikoff called “Objectivism: the Philosophy of Ayn Rand”- Penguin Books, New York, New York. It describes a life without superstition. A life that is not centered on death but on living. A life not based on fear and superstition but a life of reason and purpose. A life with morality not based on the threat of hell but on happiness. It means the exacting discipline of defining and pursuing one's rational self-interest.

A code of rational self-interest rejects every form of human sacrifice, whether of oneself to others or of others to oneself. The ethics of rational self-interest upholds the exercise of one's mind in the service of one's life, and all of the specific value-choices and character attributes which such exercise entails. It upholds the virtues of rationality, independence, integrity, honesty, justice, productiveness, pride. It does not advocate "survival at any price."